3 and You're Out!

JRutledge

dash_riprock wrote
If the fielder raises his glove to show you the ball and the ball pops out, he just demonstrated he did not control the ball (which is what you need to determine before banging the runner out on the tag). If he is showing you the ball because you told him to do so, it is going to be perceived as being your fault.

Never heard that explanation before, but I guess if you feel it is your fault, then you have the right to feel anyway you wish. I think if they cannot demonstrate they controlled the ball, that is on them. And it is not when they come up with the ball I am concerned with, it is the fact they do not have the ball at all I am mostly concerned with. Never had this as an issue and never considered it my fault if a fielder did not have the ball. Then again there are umpires that worry about things I clearly do not worry about.

dash_riprock wrote
Find the ball. It's not that hard. It takes a couple/three seconds under the worst of circumstances. Everyone knows what you are (properly) looking for.

Once again I did not say it was hard to do or that it is required to ask every single time. Do not project everything based off of one situation we are discussing here. I just know that will not make a call without some demonstration that the fielder has the ball. They might be trying to make the next play and it is obvious they had the ball the entire time. Either way I am not calling out and the ball is 10 feet somewhere else. I am not going to feel responsibility because a player does not have the ball secured. Never felt that way ever in all my years of doing this umpiring thing.

Peace

dash_riprock

Never mind.

JRutledge

dash_riprock wrote
Never mind.

I agree, some people worry about things that others could give a damn about. 😉

Peace

MD Longhorn

dash_riprock wrote
The potential problem is when the fielder raises his glove/mitt to show you the ball (after you've directed him to do so), and the ball pops out. Now you have a no-tag, and it's all your fault.

It is the umpire's job to find the ball, unassisted.

Please tell me you're not one of those "Voluntary release can last for 30 seconds" guys. Had a partner try to tell me (and enforce!) that if an outfielder catches a ball, then jogs in toward his dugout and the ball falls out near the mound, it wasn't a voluntary release, therefore not a catch.

The player makes a catch or tag, then loses the ball on subsequent action, it's still a catch/tag. "Voluntary release" is a guide on a banger, it doesn't last forever.

dash_riprock

mbcrowder wrote
Please tell me you're not one of those "Voluntary release can last for 30 seconds" guys. Had a partner try to tell me (and enforce!) that if an outfielder catches a ball, then jogs in toward his dugout and the ball falls out near the mound, it wasn't a voluntary release, therefore not a catch.

The player makes a catch or tag, then loses the ball on subsequent action, it's still a catch/tag. "Voluntary release" is a guide on a banger, it doesn't last forever.

No, I'm not in that crowd (I doubt it's a crowd). Here's another example for your partner:

R2 stealing, line drive "caught" by F5. F5 takes 6 steps chasing the now retreating R2, dives for him and the ball pops out when he hits the ground (involuntary release). Is the batter out?

Eastshire

dash_riprock wrote
No, I'm not in that crowd (I doubt it's a crowd). Here's another example for your partner:

R2 stealing, line drive "caught" by F5. F5 takes 6 steps chasing the now retreating R2, dives for him and the ball pops out when he hits the ground (involuntary release). Is the batter out?

But yet you're concerned that you can't sell an out if the ball falls out of a glove when it's opened to show you the ball several seconds after a tag?

dash_riprock

Eastshire wrote
But yet you're concerned that you can't sell an out if the ball falls out of a glove when it's opened to show you the ball several seconds after a tag?

I have no problem selling whatever it is. But control of the ball must be demonstrated before, during and after the tag. How much after is judgement. I want to see secure possession of the ball after the tag. If he raises up his glove and the ball pops out, the possession was clearly not secure.

BigUmp56

dash_riprock wrote
I have no problem selling whatever it is. But control of the ball must be demonstrated before, during and after the tag. How much after is judgement. I want to see secure possession of the ball after the tag. If he raises up his glove and the ball pops out, the possession was clearly not secure.

I think you're way overthinking this, Dash. I have no real clue how you wouldn't rule the fielder lifting the glove to show you the ball after a tag as a separate movement that would satisfy voluntary release.

Tim.

dash_riprock

BigUmp56 wrote
I think you're way overthinking this, Dash. I have no real clue how you wouldn't rule the fielder lifting the glove to show you the ball after a tag as a separate movement that would satisfy voluntary release.

I think just the opposite.

Steven Tyler

BigUmp56 wrote
I think you're way overthinking this, Dash. I have no real clue how you wouldn't rule the fielder lifting the glove to show you the ball after a tag as a separate movement that would satisfy voluntary release.

Tim.

Nobody said anything about voluntary release. Try not to be so clueless next time.

BigUmp56

Steven Tyler wrote
Nobody said anything about voluntary release. Try not to be so clueless next time.

Scroll back up and read post #50 in this thread. Maybe this time you'll get it. And while you're at it, give a quick peek at the J/R and JEA and you'll see where the concept of voluntary release is appropo here.

I hear Sweet Baby Rays really helps with the taste of crow........

Tim.

MD Longhorn

BigUmp56 wrote
Scroll back up and read post #50 in this thread. Maybe this time you'll get it. And while you're at it, give a quick peek at the J/R and JEA and you'll see where the concept of voluntary release is appropo here.

I hear Sweet Baby Rays really helps with the taste of crow........

Tim.

Don't quote the trolls.

Manny A

dash_riprock wrote
R2 stealing, line drive "caught" by F5. F5 takes 6 steps chasing the now retreating R2, dives for him and the ball pops out when he hits the ground (involuntary release). Is the batter out?

Yes. The ball popped out on the tag attempt, not on the catch attempt.

Or are you suggesting that there was no voluntary release after the catch?

Steven Tyler

BigUmp56 wrote
Scroll back up and read post #50 in this thread. Maybe this time you'll get it. And while you're at it, give a quick peek at the J/R and JEA and you'll see where the concept of voluntary release is appropo here.

I hear Sweet Baby Rays really helps with the taste of crow........

Tim.

Yes post #50 was an excellent example of what dash was stating. NOT!

dash_riprock

Manny A wrote
Yes. The ball popped out on the tag attempt, not on the catch attempt.

Or are you suggesting that there was no voluntary release after the catch?

Both. The batter is out, and there was no voluntary release after the catch.

Manny A

dash_riprock wrote
Both. The batter is out, and there was no voluntary release after the catch.

Then, by rule, you would HAVE to call the batter Safe on the uncaught ball. You cannot consider this as "no voluntary release after the catch" because that would make it a no-catch.

That was the point of my response. The ball came out of the glove when the fielder attempted to tag the runner, not when he attempted to make the catch. The catch essentially ended as soon as the fielder turned to begin his chase of the runner. Even if the ball had popped out of his glove as he was running after the runner and before he lunged to make the tag attempt, the catch would still be legal.

dash_riprock

Manny A wrote
Then, by rule, you would HAVE to call the batter Safe on the uncaught ball. You cannot consider this as "no voluntary release after the catch" because that would make it a no-catch.

Incorrect.

Manny A

dash_riprock wrote
Incorrect.

Then please explain to me what I'm missing when I read this in OBR 2.00's Definition of Catch:

In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional.

dash_riprock

Complete control of the ball is necessary for a catch. Although a voluntary release is always proof of complete control, sometimes a catch is established before there is any release of the ball.

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