I have a few questions for the NCAA refs

JRutledge

1. I am with BNR on this one. I see more calls in NCAA games than I do in HS period, not just on illegal screens.

2. I have used it and do not use it immediately during a blocked shot. I use it to sell a held ball or when we are going in the other direction. It is rarely used by me, but I do use it on some level.

Peace

Rich

rwest wrote
I don't like it. No offense intended, but I believe it is a mechanic used to tell the fans and coaches to get off my back, it was a blocked shot and not a foul. The problem is when your partner calls a foul. Also, you don't know when the play is truly complete because your partner may be having a patient whistle and come a little late to get the foul. The fact that you did not call a foul tells everyone in the gym you thought it was a blocked shot. No need for this mechanic. It adds no additional information and it will likely one day cause you some grief because of your partner calling a foul. It probably hasn't happened yet, but there's a chance it will in the future.

If it isn't done until the ball is going the other way there's really no chance of a patient whistle coming in and creating an issue.

Welpe

BadNewsRef wrote
2. I don't like the mechanic when in the heat of the play. I've seen officials who do it. I attended a D1 game once where the C did the mechanic but the T had a whistle for a foul. I only use it after the play to communicate long distance to a coach as to why I had no foul call.

I will file that one away in the library. Thanks!

APG

Timing is important in using the signal...for the most part, you don't see officials using the signal right as the action is finishing...there's usually a delay to accommodate for the fact that there might be a whistle from someone's secondary. Of course, if your partner(s) come in any later than that, there's gonna be an issue anyhow with the opposing coach.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the signal when used correctly. It's just another means of giving additional information that can help with coaches/players.

truerookie

groupthink wrote
if it isn't done until the ball is going the other way there's really no chance of a patient whistle coming in and creating an issue.

Hey,

This screen name is not authorized!

This does not occur around here. 🙂

tref

GROUPthink wrote
If it isn't done until the ball is going the other way there's really no chance of a patient whistle coming in and creating an issue.

Yeah, I thought I stressed "after the play was complete."
I guess the people who dont like it either communicate verbally during live balls or ignore coaches. The people I work for dont condone either.

truerookie

rwest wrote
I don't call at the NCAA level so I don't know what is taught at that level.

1. I've noticed that on screens there seems to be a consensus among the officials to allow for the screener to move his hips into the player being screened. At least in the recent games I've seen.

2. I've seen some officials use a mechanic that I dislike and that I tell younger officials to avoid developing the habit. On a block shot they clamp their hands together similar to the gator chomp but obviously not as dramatic. I have always seen this done by the lead. I tell younger officials to avoid this because if the lead believes there is no foul but the trail sees contact and decides to call it, it doesn't look good having two officials with two different calls. Of course, this is when the T should be calling fouls in the leads primary, for example on rebounding action or a drive to the basket from their primary. Am I wrong to dislike this mechanic? Is it taught at the NCAA level?

1. it happens and your observation has some truth to it.

2. i agree its bad and should not be used. Everyone in the gym seen what happened. If a question arises from a coach a simple " it was a clean block" is sufficient.

tref

truerookie wrote
2. i agree its bad and should not be used. Everyone in the gym seen what happened. If a question arises from a coach a simple.

If everyone in the gym saw it, why is there still a question?

truerookie wrote
" it was a clean block" is sufficient.

During a live ball? Suppose coach is asking the old L, new T, who happens to be opposite table?

truerookie

tref wrote
If everyone in the gym saw it, why is there still a question?

During a live ball? Suppose coach is asking the old L, new T, who happens to be opposite table?

This particular play may still cause for questioning when there is contact after the block and the coach may want a foul.

If the old L had a look he/she may answer as long as he/she maintain positive eye contact on the player while transitioning.

new T which is the old L. Should not have a whistle unless the contact is below the shoulders.

SWMOzebra

tref wrote
During a live ball? Suppose coach is asking the old L, new T, who happens to be opposite table?

Any coach worth his salt will know that rotation will bring the official to whom he wants to speak next to him very shortly and he will ask his question or make his point with that official at that time.

Adam

tref wrote
Yeah, I thought I stressed "after the play was complete."
I guess the people who dont like it either communicate verbally during live balls or ignore coaches. The people I work for dont condone either.

I don't like it, but it's because the partners I see using it do it during the play. They do it on plays in my primary.

I'm lead, shot goes up in our joint area towards the top of the lane, and the T (2 whistle) is giving the tip signal before the ball even hits the floor on a blocked shot. I've got no problem with it being used afterwards, by people who have a better sense of timing due to experience.

Raymond

truerookie wrote
...
new T which is the old L. Should not have a whistle unless the contact is below the shoulders.

Really? So if the Lead sees B1 elbow contacting A1's head while B1 is blocking the shot he's supposed to ignore it?

truerookie

BadNewsRef wrote
Really? So if the Lead sees B1 elbow contacting A1's head while B1 is blocking the shot he's supposed to ignore it?

Really!! T or C should be aggressive in ensuring they catch that level of contact.

From your question, you believe the L is justified in calling a push from behind too.

tref

A push from behind isnt in the same category as a shot to the dome.

Adam

truerookie wrote
Really!! T or C should be aggressive in ensuring they catch that level of contact.

From your question, you believe the L is justified in calling a push from behind too.

If he's worked to get a good angle (which is possible on many such fouls), then yes. If he's straight lined; no.

tref

Snaqwells wrote
If he's worked to get a good angle (which is possible on many such fouls), then yes. If he's straight lined; no.

True, but I think C/T get first crack at it.

Adam

tref wrote
True, but I think C/T get first crack at it.

With three, yep.

truerookie

tref wrote
A push from behind isnt in the same category as a shot to the dome.

Why not? A shot to the dome can occur from behind as well as from the front. The lead to call that too? My point is if that level of contact occurred the T or C should be aggressive in getting it instead of the lead.

Raymond

Snaqwells wrote
If he's worked to get a good angle (which is possible on many such fouls), then yes. If he's straight lined; no.

tref wrote
True, but I think C/T get first crack at it.

Nobody said they shouldn't. We're addressing Mr. GroupThink's assertion that the Lead can't call any contact above the shoulders.

truerookie wrote
Really!! T or C should be aggressive in ensuring they catch that level of contact.

What level of contact? I didn't say it was severe. I said an elbow clips the shooter's head during a blocked shot. There plenty of play scenarios where the T or C might not see contact to the head depending on the positioning of the players involved.

truerookie wrote
From your question, you believe the L is justified in calling a push from behind too.

I fail to see the correlation between my question and this assertion. Maybe you could enlighten me since I'm not part of your particular GroupThink Tank.

rwest

tref wrote
Yeah, I thought I stressed "after the play was complete."
I guess the people who dont like it either communicate verbally during live balls or ignore coaches. The people I work for dont condone either.

But I didn't understand it to mean when the ball is going the other way. If there is definitely no way that another official may whistle a foul on the play, then my main objection to it is irrelevant. However, at the high school level I see it more right after a shot is blocked. There is still a potential for a whistle. I guess its just one of those things we can disagree on. I don't like it and don't want younger officials getting into the habit. I guess you can argue that you are providing more information. You are saying you saw it and judged it was not a foul. However, my argument is that not calling the foul says the same thing.