3 man for sophomore?

chseagle

RookieDude wrote
True...

not sure if the girls' officials feel they need 3 whistle for ALL the levels.

(I know I sure like 3 whislte, for ALL levels, on the boys side!)😉

For the Girls' side the extra pair of eyes can be used for fashion police duties J/K 🙄

Adam

chseagle wrote
Since we've gone 3 person, I've seen a 2-person sub-varsity Girls' game only once or twice.

That would make sense. Scheduling issues would probably be allowable, as long as the school is attempting to get three.

But I'm no attorney.

Adam

RookieDude wrote
True...

not sure if the girls' officials feel they need 3 whistle for ALL the levels.

(I know I sure like 3 whislte, for ALL levels, on the boys side!)😉

Here we have to work both, and I can tell you the need is far more consistent with the boys.

ga314ref

...after there's a John McSherry type of incident. Maybe.

mbyron

Snaqwells wrote
It would be interesting if the schools are able to use two for girls without dealing with Title IX complaints.

I'm surprised that the existence of distinct associations for boys and girls doesn't prompt Title IX issues.

Rich

Snaqwells wrote
It would be interesting if the schools are able to use two for girls without dealing with Title IX complaints.

I've said the same many times. I have never felt I *needed* three on a girls game here. I've rarely felt that 2 was sufficient on the boys side.

Title IX or political correctness?

Adam

Probably both.

ref3808

RichMSN wrote
I've said the same many times. I have never felt I *needed* three on a girls game here. I've rarely felt that 2 was sufficient on the boys side.

Title IX or political correctness?

Agree totally.

letemplay

I'm assistant coach this season at the local middle school (Sub-JV level, 7th and 8th graders) Usually we have 2 certified (but this level experience only) officials to do a boys and girls DH. Other day we were at a school 45 miles away that used 2 in street clothes from the stands...two nights later in a different county we get a 3 whistle varsity level crew. Seems anything goes at this age group...got some real gems from the undercover refs!!

Camron Rust

mbyron wrote
I'm surprised that the existence of distinct associations for boys and girls doesn't prompt Title IX issues.

Why would it? There is nothing about title IX that requires that a person (independent contractor) who does a job for one group (gender) also do that job for the other gender. Title IX requires the school to offer the same level of opportunities to both genders. It doesn't govern the organizations that provide contract services with the schools/teams.

mbyron

Camron Rust wrote
Why would it? There is nothing about title IX that requires that a person (independent contractor) who does a job for one group (gender) also do that job for the other gender. Title IX requires the school to offer the same level of opportunities to both genders. It doesn't govern the organizations that provide contract services with the schools/teams.

Schools hiring different quality officials for boys' and girls' events could provide grounds for a liability claim under Title IX.

Many people here seem to find this topic unpleasant, and it's largely irrelevant to officiating, so that's all I'm going to say. 🙂

Adam

As long as the schools pay the same and provide the same accommodations, I think they're clear. They can't control who accepts their contract offers.

Rich

mbyron wrote
Schools hiring different quality officials for boys' and girls' events could provide grounds for a liability claim under Title IX.

Say I am a high school official (I am) and I decide I want to work nothing but boys games. Exactly what are you saying -- the schools and the conferences I work for shouldn't hire me unless I'm willing to work both boys and girls games?

mbyron

RichMSN wrote
Say I am a high school official (I am) and I decide I want to work nothing but boys games. Exactly what are you saying -- the schools and the conferences I work for shouldn't hire me unless I'm willing to work both boys and girls games?

I'm not saying anything about you or the schools you work for. 😛

JRutledge

mbyron wrote
Schools hiring different quality officials for boys' and girls' events could provide grounds for a liability claim under Title IX.

Many people here seem to find this topic unpleasant, and it's largely irrelevant to officiating, so that's all I'm going to say. 🙂

Not sure where that legal standard would come from. We are independent contractors, how can someone make me work any level I choose not to? If they make me do that, then they would violate my rights and an independent contractor and I would have a claim of being an employee.

Peace

Altor

RichMSN wrote
Say I am a high school official (I am) and I decide I want to work nothing but boys games. Exactly what are you saying -- the schools and the conferences I work for shouldn't hire me unless I'm willing to work both boys and girls games?

I talked to a conference assigner many years ago (before the Internet, when officials sent post cards with their open dates to assigners) who told me that if an official only had Friday and Saturday nights open (the traditional times for boys games in this area) and no Thursdays or Saturday afternoons (the traditional times for girls), that he threw the post card in the trash with prejudice.

Rich

Altor wrote
I talked to a conference assigner many years ago (before the Internet, when officials sent post cards with their open dates to assigners) who told me that if an official only had Friday and Saturday nights open (the traditional times for boys games in this area) and no Thursdays or Saturday afternoons (the traditional times for girls), that he threw the post card in the trash with prejudice.

I know plenty of officials who simply wouldn't work for that assignor. Personally, I don't mind working girls - as long as I'm working at least 60% or so boys dates.

Altor

And that's (y)our prerogative, as a independent contractor. I was just pointing out that there are conferences and assigners out there that may not use (y)our services...as is their prerogative.

If you get the games you want (both quality and quantity), I guess it doesn't matter.

SNIPERBBB

mbyron wrote
I'm surprised that the existence of distinct associations for boys and girls doesn't prompt Title IX issues.

This may be soon coming to Ohio with the OHSAA wanting associations to split between boys and girls basketball, (read as you will have to join 2 associations unless you want to do one or the other). They are trying to get baseball and softball associations to split up, which is more reasonable than the boy/girl basketball thing. (still won't mean squat in basketball tournament selection process in the SE district)

Then again..our baseball/softball association secretary has been warning us about that for the last 2 or 3 years with no changes yet.

JRutledge

Altor wrote
And that's (y)our prerogative, as a independent contractor. I was just pointing out that there are conferences and assigners out there that may not use (y)our services...as is their prerogative.

If you get the games you want (both quality and quantity), I guess it doesn't matter.

It is not uncommon for a boy's assignor not to hire someone because they work too many girl's games or they are not seen to be good enough to work boy's games. So yes they do not have to hire you, but most top boy's officials have no desire to work girl's games. Most officials I know work girl's games as a default and want to eliminate the girl's games when and if they have the opportunity. Also our playoffs run at different times with the girl's working first, so it would be hard to make someone work both.

Peace

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