Jason Kidd travel?

APG

I vaguely remember the play but don't remember if there was a travel or not. If it happened as you say, it would be a travel. This isn't a reviewable matter either.

Adam

Could have simply been a missed call. Happens all the time at all levels.

BktBallRef

Yes, he traveled.

No, they're not going to make that call in the NBA.

Yes, I've called it and will again.

Adam

None of that is relevant. If it's big enough to see, you call it. If you need 7 replays to see it, you don't call it regardless of the magnitude of the game.

just another ref

Here's where we are:

1. This is the rule.

2. This is how we're going to call it.

The two seem to be getting farther apart to me.

In the NBA and the NCAA a travel immediately followed by a shot attempted is often ignored, apparently by design. I see too many to believe otherwise.

I have not seen the play at hand. Apparently it is a given that Kidd did indeed move the pivot foot. (minutely?)

Unwritten rule: If the violation is minute, it could/should/must be ignored?

This sucks. Now we must decide what is minute.

The argument that it was not seen in real time is often valid, but not the point. If I miss it, it's just missed. Sometimes the miss is justified, sometimes not. But if I see it, and I call it, and any replay does confirm it, nobody can complain.

If making a technically correct call, no matter how minute, keeps me from returning anywhere, I don't care to be there.

BktBallRef

So, I'm a liar, eh?

I really don't care what you believe.

Kidd squared up. The defender ran out at him, jumped, and forced him to change his shot. He stepped with both feet, took and made the shot, there by gaining an advantage by traveling.

Yes, I've called it and will again.

BillyMac

BktBallRef wrote
He stepped with both feet, took and made the shot, there by gaining an advantage by traveling.

I don't get a chance to work too many state championship games, but when I observe a travel, and I'm certain it's a travel, I'm calling it, whether it's in the first minute of a Catholic middle school game in December, or it's in the final minute of a high school varsity league playoff game in March.

On the other hand, if I'm not sure it's a travel, I'm not sounding my whistle, at any level, at any time.

With few exceptions (three seconds, ten second free throw) I don't pick and choose the calls, or noncalls, that I make, or don't make, in a game when I'm certain that a violation has occurred.

Multiple Sports

OK so maybe the pro game you can get away with a no-call, but this is exactly the opposite of what John Adams has been preaching. Look at the end of the But / Pitt game. You could argue that the foul call was cheap because the foul occured with little time. Why are you refereeing a state championship game any differently. If this is a travel and you don't call it, then that is regarded as a missed call.......

just another ref

Advantage/disadvantage and intent to draw/avoid contact: Neither is a part of the traveling rule.

Very true. But at this juncture it can.

And this is a concern to us because......??

BillyMac

This is why basketball officials everywhere find what we do so challenging. This is why we get paid the big bucks, whether it's in a Catholic middle school game, a high school varsity game, an NCAA game, or an NBA game. If one can't multi-task, then one should not become a basketball official. If one wants to officiate a less challenging sport, then become a linesman at the French open, where one can concentrate on just one thing, and if one has a question, then one can look for a mark in the clay.

Camron Rust

By that argument, we should leave our whistles in our pockets and pull them out only in the event of a fight.

If many/most referees can see the wiggle of the foot, then it should be called. And yes, it can be seen. It is simply lazy to not call it if you see it.

just another ref

Even though this is not possible, it should be our goal to see it all, not just the blatantly obvious.

The call is justified if it is confirmed by the replay, which apparently it was in this case. As for "passing on" 8 other calls, the solution is simple.
Don't do that, either.

BillyMac

just another ref wrote
It should be our goal to see it all, not just the blatantly obvious.

Which can often be accomplished by an official backing up a few steps to open up his field of view.

MrPlywood

I'm enjoying the debate guys. Thanks for the replies. For my part, I'm not a ref. That said, I noticed the second step in the long shot, then it was confirmed in the replay. I was struck by the way the announcers were discussing whether Kidd was behind the line and not the fact that he took steps to get the shot off.

As far as the "2-inch wiggle", had the the replay shown that his foot was 1/4" over the three point line, that shot would have been a two. Inches count.

BillyMac

MrPlywood wrote
Inches count.

According to your Forum name, I'm sure that you already know something that my junior high school shop teacher, Mr. Klimkowski, taught us about 45 years ago, "Measure twice. Cut once".

Adam

MrPlywood wrote
I'm enjoying the debate guys. Thanks for the replies. For my part, I'm not a ref. That said, I noticed the second step in the long shot, then it was confirmed in the replay. I was struck by the way the announcers were discussing whether Kidd was behind the line and not the fact that he took steps to get the shot off.

As far as the "2-inch wiggle", had the the replay shown that his foot was 1/4" over the three point line, that shot would have been a two. Inches count.

Yes, inches count, but lines are always more easily enforced (by their very nature) than pivot feet and short steps when a player is constantly moving on the feet. Traveling isn't nearly as important to the powers-that-be as monitoring the three point line; otherwise travels would be subject to replay review.

MD Longhorn

BillyMac wrote
This is why basketball officials everywhere find what we do so challenging. This is why we get paid the big bucks, whether it's in a Catholic middle school game, a high school varsity game, an NCAA game, or an NBA game. If one can't multi-task, then one should not become a basketball official. If one wants to officiate a less challenging sport, then become a linesman at the French open, where one can concentrate on just one thing, and if one has a question, then one can look for a mark in the clay.

Multitasking is one thing. To make this call you're either A) expecting the referee to have at least 4 eyeballs capable of independent motion or B) be looking for the 2-inch wobble at the expense of missing a foul/no-foul call that is much more likely to be needed. You are not failing to multitask if your eyes are on the most probable call and not 78 inches lower - you are simply human and prioritizing your responsibilities.

Adam

mbcrowder wrote
Multitasking is one thing. To make this call you're either A) expecting the referee to have at least 4 eyeballs capable of independent motion or B) be looking for the 2-inch wobble at the expense of missing a foul/no-foul call that is much more likely to be needed. You are not failing to multitask if your eyes are on the most probable call and not 78 inches lower - you are simply human and prioritizing your responsibilities.

Assuming it's a 2 inch wobble, you're right. It's easy to miss, but higher level officials should catch it fairly often.

If it's a side step that actually creates distance from a defender, then it should caught more often than missed. Otherwise, anytime there's a defender nearby, we'd miss 100% of the travels.

MrPlywood

I was able to find the game and view it again. Kidd actually sidesteps to the right to try to create contact with the defender. The ref is to Kidd's left in what looks like perfect position to me, maybe 15 feet away, but I can see how he could have been concentrating on the potential foul. Hard to tell if he shifts his gaze to the feet, but he does raise his hand to signal a three attempt.

I can post a clip somewhere if anyone is interested...

APG

MrPlywood wrote
I was able to find the game and view it again. Kidd actually sidesteps to the right to try to create contact with the defender. The ref is to Kidd's left in what looks like perfect position to me, maybe 15 feet away, but I can see how he could have been concentrating on the potential foul. Hard to tell if he shifts his gaze to the feet, but he does raise his hand to signal a three attempt.

I can post a clip somewhere if anyone is interested...

If you could post the clip it'd be nice...if you can't, then you can give me a copy of the clip and I can post it on my YouTube account.