Judgement v Missed Rule

Indianaref

Snaqwells wrote
You've got to be 100% sure he kicked a rule before even talking to him, IMO. If you think there's a possibility that he judged it differently (and you did here), then let it go.

Yes! I should have added that I would have to be 100%.

referee99

... I would try to get to my rookie partner's earshot and ask "did we establish team control??", prompting him to dialog. I would offer information and encourage/let them decide.

Eastshire

tref wrote
2 wrongs make it right?
If one chooses to go THAT route, dont bring it up in post-game!
Cant stand working with or listening to "those guys" that do nothing to assist, but wanna show off after the fact. Oh you fancy huh?

I don't think bringing it up later is showing off, particularly in the situation of working with a rookie. In this case, he specifically asked me in pre-game to bring up anything I may have noticed during the game.

Thats tough, did we have a huge negative reaction? Or did they buy his act?
Afterall, it was a GJV. j/k

There was virtually no reaction from the coaches and players. The fans on the other hand were screaming "You have to have control!" Where in the world do you find fans that understand both the backcourt rule and that there's no team control during a throw in?

tref

Eastshire wrote
I don't think bringing it up later is showing off, particularly in the situation of working with a rookie. In this case, he specifically asked me in pre-game to bring up anything I may have noticed during the game.

There was virtually no reaction from the coaches and players. The fans on the other hand were screaming "You have to have control!" Where in the world do you find fans that understand both the backcourt rule and that there's no team control during a throw in?

You obviously dont know some of the guys that I know... many people are not from the "if you dont look good, I dont look good" camp.

Play on!

Eastshire

tref wrote
You obviously dont know some of the guys that I know... many people are not from the "if you dont look good, I dont look good" camp.

Play on!

I'm from the "I'd like to look good, but I'd rather be right." camp.

Adam

Indianaref wrote
Yes! I should have added that I would have to be 100%.

Right, and it seems here there was some doubt as to the nature of his error. If there's even a chance it might be judgment, as you indicated, I'll let it go and ask him later what he saw on that play. Only if there's zero chance that it was a judgment error will I approach him during the game.

jeffpea

the days of "it's not in my area so it's not my business" are over....get the call right is, and should be, the goal for officials...

tref

jeffpea wrote
the days of "it's not in my area so it's not my business" are over....get the call right is, and should be, the goal for officials...

Really!! Depending on the level of ball one works & what type of camps (if any) one attends, "dont call in my area" can be quite the norm 😀

I always thought the goal was to officiate engaged matchups in our PCA while knowing where our partners are, the ball is & as many of the players on the court as possible. Hell, I even like to be aware when a sub gets up off the bench & heads to the table...

Adam

There are more reasons to leave this alone than to deal with it on the court; assuming you think it could possibly be a judgment call.

tref

Snaqs, is OOB violations a judgment call?

Adam

tref wrote
Snaqs, is OOB violations a judgment call?

Nope, but backcourt violations can be due to the need to determine whether and when control is established.

tref

Ok, so making an IC on OOB is not an error in judgment, we just saw it wrong?

Adam

tref wrote
Ok, so making an IC on OOB is not an error in judgment, we just saw it wrong?

Not sure where you're heading with this. Yes, you're right. OOB calls are judgment calls. Not sure what I was thinking.

bainsey

Eastshire wrote
I'm from the "I'd like to look good, but I'd rather be right." camp.

I believe the Golden Rule applies here. I tell every partner, if you think I kicked something, come talk to me. We'll compare what we saw.

Go talk with your partner. Besides, if you late that play go, you're only perpetuating the myth (or ignorance, really) that team control isn't considered in a backcourt violation.

Judtech

:mad😃on't even get me started on the "Over and Back" call. It has been the most kicked rule I have seen this year. Really? Is it THAT hard!!
BUT I am not in the 100% sure camp. If I have information that I am 'pretty sure' the other official does not have (can't really put a percentage on it, but say over 85%) I am going to speak with them. Especially if I was a veteran with a rookie/newer partner. (Of course we had to 15+ year vets not know the rule last nite, but the 5 yr vet knew it!! Guess that is why he does College ball as well)
Ok, I will now retrun the soap box to its regular place!

tref

Snaqwells wrote
Not sure where you're heading with this. Yes, you're right. OOB calls are judgment calls. Not sure what I was thinking.

I'm just saying, lets get it right.

Some have said dont help on judgment calls but we always help on OOB calls. Just wanted clarify if that was a judgment call.

In the OP its a competitive GJV game with :04 left in the 3rd Q & no negative reaction from the players/bench... play on. Afterall, they have 8 minutes to recover from the ICC, right 😉

Adam

tref wrote
I'm just saying, lets get it right.

Some have said dont help on judgment calls but we always help on OOB calls. Just wanted clarify if that was a judgment call.

In the OP its a competitive GJV game with :04 left in the 3rd Q & no negative reaction from the players/bench... play on. Afterall, they have 8 minutes to recover from the ICC, right 😉

No, I don't always help on OOB calls; only if I'm confident I saw something the calling official missed. Even then, some officials on this forum have different criteria for doing that.

To me, the BC call is closer to a travel call than an OOB call, especially when a determination of control is involved such as the OP. I have helped partners with this call; most recently on a throwin from the FC endline that landed 15 feet into the BC. Partner called the violation, I went and had a chat with her to discuss it. But if the pass and catch had been close enough that I thought she might have judged control was gained in the FC, I'd have let it go.

tref

Snaqwells wrote
No, I don't always help on OOB calls; only if I'm confident I saw something the calling official missed. Even then, some officials on this forum have different criteria for doing that.

To me, the BC call is closer to a travel call than an OOB call, especially when a determination of control is involved such as the OP. I have helped partners with this call; most recently on a throwin from the FC endline that landed 15 feet into the BC. Partner called the violation, I went and had a chat with her to discuss it. But if the pass and catch had been close enough that I thought she might have judged control was gained in the FC, I'd have let it go.

That was a given 😀

Makes sense.

I saw an NBA official head towards a partner after an IC on OOB which resulted in a huge negative "fan" reaction. The calling official didnt allow the helper to come all the way to him, he just said, "oh, you have it the other way?" hit the whistle & changed his call. It took all of 2 seconds & looked really good... trust! They must've pregamed "if I'm headed your way I'm 110% sure."

Adam

tref wrote
That was a given 😀

Makes sense.

I saw an NBA official head towards a partner after an IC on OOB which resulted in a huge negative "fan" reaction. The calling official didnt allow the helper to come all the way to him, he just said, "oh, you have it the other way?" hit the whistle & changed his call. It took all of 2 seconds & looked really good... trust! They must've pregamed "if I'm headed your way I'm 110% sure."

Right, that's the approach some on here take. "If you come to me, I'll assume you're right so I'm changing the call."

Eastshire

Snaqwells wrote
No, I don't always help on OOB calls; only if I'm confident I saw something the calling official missed. Even then, some officials on this forum have different criteria for doing that.

To me, the BC call is closer to a travel call than an OOB call, especially when a determination of control is involved such as the OP. I have helped partners with this call; most recently on a throwin from the FC endline that landed 15 feet into the BC. Partner called the violation, I went and had a chat with her to discuss it. But if the pass and catch had been close enough that I thought she might have judged control was gained in the FC, I'd have let it go.

There's so many moving parts to BC that it's sometime like traveling and sometimes like OOB.

For instance, if you as L have the ball down in your corner and see a deflection from B and A clearly recovers in the BC, you're going to correct it like an OOB. On the other hand, if A is right around the line, you have a harder time. Did you partner notice the touch and A just got to it before it went across or did he not see the touch and A wasn't the last to touch in the front court.

I think if A recovers it near the line you're just going to have to trust your partner.