If I could change one rule, it would be....

Cobra

bainsey wrote
Getting back to the original thread idea...

Could anyone tell me where the term "umpire" came from as it relates to a basketball official? Aside from your partner, when's the last time someone at a basketball game called you an "ump?"

I might suggest getting rid of the term "umpire" in basketball, going with "assistant referee" (or "A.R."), or calling the one in charge the "head referee." Once the ball is tossed, it's not like there's a huge disparity of duties or positioning (like referees and umpires in football).

And then you will say "when was the last time someone called you an assistant referee?"

bainsey

Cobra wrote
And then you will say "when was the last time someone called you an assistant referee?"

Not at all. When someone says, "hey ref!" or refer to "the refs," at least they would be correct.

Anyway, nice catch, Welpe. Obviously, I overlooked the original 13, but when you consider that referees and umpires had separate duties -- far different from today -- you wonder if the term "umpire" has long outlasted its use.

just another ref

Cobra wrote
And then you will say "when was the last time someone called you an assistant referee?"

I think there is an abbreviation which is commonly used.

Adam

bainsey wrote
Not at all. When someone says, "hey ref!" or refer to "the refs," at least they would be correct.

Anyway, nice catch, Welpe. Obviously, I overlooked the original 13, but when you consider that referees and umpires had separate duties -- far different from today -- you wonder if the term "umpire" has long outlasted its use.

It's semantics.

Perhaps we should rename the endline since everyone calls it the "baseline." Or we could add an "over the back" foul. 😉

26 Year Gap

Snaqwells wrote
It's semantics.

Perhaps we should rename the endline since everyone calls it the "baseline." Or we could add an "over the back" foul. 😉

With the Boris Karloff mechanic?

Rich

26 Year Gap wrote
With the Boris Karloff mechanic?

Also known as the "creeping death" foul.

bainsey

Snaqwells wrote
Perhaps we should rename the endline since everyone calls it the "baseline." Or we could add an "over the back" foul. 😉

I saw that Karloff mechanic more than once at the UMaine/Boston U. game yesterday. To say such mechanics are discouraged by our organization would be an understatement. (When in Rome, I guess.)

Anyway, if you really want to get down to linguistics, Snaq, there are reasons why those two examples wouldn't work. "Umpire" is more of a semantics thing, I suppose, but it's more than about simply making a change to reflect common usage. That common usage would have to be literally accurate, as well.

Adam

bainsey wrote
I saw that Karloff mechanic more than once at the UMaine/Boston U. game yesterday. To say such mechanics are discouraged by our organization would be an understatement. (When in Rome, I guess.)

Anyway, if you really want to get down to linguistics, Snaq, there are reasons why those two examples wouldn't work. "Umpire" is more of a semantics thing, I suppose, but it's more than about simply making a change to reflect common usage. That common usage would have to be literally accurate, as well.

I thought your whole reason was because we're never called "umpire." (common usage)

The accuracy of the terms is completely arbitrary and determined by the rule book. Heck, Arbiter uses R1, R2, and R3; but guys in my association automatically adjust to R, U1, and U2, during pregame. "Who's the R again?"

"Assistant Referee" has connotations to it that are negative, IMO. "Head referee" denotes more authority than really exists (again, IMO).

IOW, it ain't broke.

26 Year Gap

Snaqwells wrote
I thought your whole reason was because we're never called "umpire." (common usage)

The accuracy of the terms is completely arbitrary and determined by the rule book. Heck, Arbiter uses R1, R2, and R3; but guys in my association automatically adjust to R, U1, and U2, during pregame. "Who's the R again?"

"Assistant Referee" has connotations to it that are negative, IMO. "Head referee" denotes more authority than really exists (again, IMO).

IOW, it ain't broke.

Scorebooks also have referee/umpire designations. Our Arbiter has R, U1 & U2 designations. My prior one in VT did as well. The fans, players and coaches don't know the rules anyway, so why make a change here?

bainsey

Snaqwells wrote
I thought your whole reason was because we're never called "umpire." (common usage)

Not whole. As you pointed out, it can't be change for change's sake. The change has to make verbal sense (whereas "baseline" and "over the back" have proven flaws).

I don't see anything negative about "A.R.," as it's used in soccer, but it's true that there's not a lot of authority involved for a "head" referee in basketball. For some reason, it doesn't stop us from asking, colloqually, "who's the boss tonight?"

For me, it just doesn't make sense that we're continuing to use a term that is rarely used or understood outside our circle, particularly if there's a clearer alternative.

26 Year Gap

bainsey wrote
Not whole. As you pointed out, it can't be change for change's sake. The change has to make verbal sense (whereas "baseline" and "over the back" have proven flaws).

I don't see anything negative about "A.R.," as it's used in soccer, but it's true that there's not a lot of authority involved for a "head" referee in basketball. For some reason, it doesn't stop us from asking, colloqually, "who's the boss tonight?"

For me, it just doesn't make sense that we're continuing to use a term that is rarely used or understood outside our circle, particularly if there's a clearer alternative.

You could say that about rules 1-10 as well.

Cobra

bainsey wrote
Not at all. When someone says, "hey ref!" or refer to "the refs," at least they would be correct.

Ref is short for referee. The other officials would have to be called assistant refs to be correct.

Snaqwells wrote
Heck, Arbiter uses R1, R2, and R3

The arbiter uses whatever the administrator wants it is use.

bainsey wrote
For me, it just doesn't make sense that we're continuing to use a term that is rarely used or understood outside our circle, particularly if there's a clearer alternative.

So I guess all the people who never knew that there was a referee and an umpire are now going to know that there is a referee and an assistant referee? Seems like if they didn't know what the officials were called before they aren't going to magically just figure it out now.

Actually it is commonly understood that the lead official is called the referee and the others are called something else as it is common to many sports such as: Basketball, football, rugby, soccer, hockey, sumo wrestling...

BktBallRef

bainsey wrote
For me, it just doesn't make sense that we're continuing to use a term that is rarely used or understood outside our circle, particularly if there's a clearer alternative.

There'd be a helluva mess if we had 5 referees on a football field.

BktBallRef

RichMSN wrote
It's terrible working on college courts with 2 lines.

I don't mind the two lines.

It's the extra ten feet I hate! 🙂

Adam

bainsey wrote
Not whole. As you pointed out, it can't be change for change's sake. The change has to make verbal sense (whereas "baseline" and "over the back" have proven flaws).

I don't see anything negative about "A.R.," as it's used in soccer, but it's true that there's not a lot of authority involved for a "head" referee in basketball. For some reason, it doesn't stop us from asking, colloqually, "who's the boss tonight?"

For me, it just doesn't make sense that we're continuing to use a term that is rarely used or understood outside our circle, particularly if there's a clearer alternative.

There's nothing incorrect about the current usage. And what's the proven flaw in "baseline" if we change it in the rule book. "Baseline" is an almost exact analogy to the change your proposing. A semantic change based on popular usage; nothing more.

bainsey

Snaqwells wrote
And what's the proven flaw in "baseline" if we change it in the rule book. [sic]

As I was told, you can't have a baseline, if there aren't any bases.

FWIW, the NBA rule book uses both "baseline" and "endline." I just did a quick online search, and I only saw "endline" in FIBA, NCAA, and of course, NFHS.

Adam

There's nothing inherently wrong with either term; it's just that one is a rule term for an OOB line and one is a rule term for something else.

And what's with "sic," are you commenting on my use of a sentence fragment rather than a complete sentence? 😀

26 Year Gap

Snaqwells wrote
There's nothing inherently wrong with either term; it's just that one is a rule term for an OOB line and one is a rule term for something else.

And what's with "sic," are you commenting on my use of a sentence fragment rather than a complete sentence? 😃

Jeopardy! Please answer in the form of a question. 😉

bainsey

26 Year Gap wrote
Jeopardy! Please answer in the form of a question. 😉

LOL Yeah, that was it. (Question, not a fragment.) The journalist in me never dies. I spend four years getting a degree in journalism, and what do I do with it now? I type "[sic]" on a stinkin' online forum. 😀

Rich

BktBallRef wrote
I don't mind the two lines.

It's the extra ten feet I hate! 🙂

Really? I *love* the extra space. I actually feel like I get into a better run on a college court.

Where I feel like my legs weigh a ton is when the game is slow and I have to do a half-run / half-walk up and down to maintain good spacing. On a fast up-and-down I usually feel like working another game afterwards.

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