Travel, carry, or nothing?

Indianaref

rwest wrote
I don't believe you have a travel here. If both players had control of the ball how can you call travel and who would you call it on? If neither had control you can't have a travel without control in this case. If both had control but neither could gain sole posession of the ball, the only thing I can come up with is a possible held ball.

How can B1 have control? 4-12-1...A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

Adam

rwest wrote
I don't believe you have a travel here. If both players had control of the ball how can you call travel and who would you call it on? If neither had control you can't have a travel without control in this case. If both had control but neither could gain sole posession of the ball, the only thing I can come up with is a possible held ball.

Two teammates can have joint control and one can commit a travel violation. If two opponents have control and one travels, I'll go with a held ball virtually every time. I'm trying to figure out if this looks like control to me; I don't think so.

The definition of a held ball (4-25) notes hands from each player. Not the case here. I think this is a classic case of "ugly isn't necessarily illegal." Unless A1's hand was under the ball, I've got nothing.

Adam

Indianaref wrote
How can B1 have control? 4-12-1...A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

The way I see it, the dribble hadn't ended yet, and a player cannot travel while dribbling. I don't think it's resting in A1's hand if it's B1's hip that's preventing it from going to the floor.

Indianaref

Snaqwells wrote
The way I see it, the dribble hadn't ended yet, and a player cannot travel while dribbling. I don't think it's resting in A1's hand if it's B1's hip that's preventing it from going to the floor.

So I quess it's alright for A1 to stick the ball on the hip of A2 and run down the court?

rwest

Snaqwells wrote
Two teammates can have joint control and one can commit a travel violation. If two opponents have control and one travels, I'll go with a held ball virtually every time. I'm trying to figure out if this looks like control to me; I don't think so.

The definition of a held ball (4-25) notes hands from each player. Not the case here. I think this is a classic case of "ugly isn't necessarily illegal." Unless A1's hand was under the ball, I've got nothing.

You have to have control to travel and both players have to have control to call a held ball. I'd have to see it but like you say "ugly isn't necessarily illegal.".

Could we look at this as an interrupted dribble? I know it's not the text book example, but his dribble was interrupted. I can't say that he really has control. Maybe he does but I'd have to see it. If the hand was under the ball, then we could go with a carry.

rwest

Indianaref wrote
How can B1 have control? 4-12-1...A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

This is a had to be there type of play. I was just thinking out loud at all the possibilities.

bainsey

Indianaref wrote
How can B1 have control? 4-12-1...A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

Look at it this way. A-1 goes up for a shot, which is blocked by B-2, who pins the ball to A-1's shooting hand. By rule, this is a held ball.

Simply put, the ball is pinned between two opposing players. If the resulting movement would be a travel(as a blocked shot of an airborne player), then I say you'd have to go with a held ball.

Adam

Indianaref wrote
So I quess it's alright for A1 to stick the ball on the hip of A2 and run down the court?

Nah, as even if this slips through some loophole in the rules; I think it's safe to say it's an advantage not intended by the rules. If A1's purposefully sticking the ball on the hip of a teammate, I'd consider that control.

No offensive player in his right mind would do this with an opponent's hip on purpose; dribbling is both easier and more controlled.

Besides, it would just be easier to dribble and use A2 as a blocker. 😀

Adam

bainsey wrote
Look at it this way. A-1 goes up for a shot, which is blocked by B-2, who pins the ball to A-1's shooting hand. By rule, this is a held ball.

Simply put, the ball is pinned between two opposing players. If the resulting movement would be a travel(as a blocked shot of an airborne player), then I say you'd have to go with a held ball.

I don't think the held ball rule works here. You're referencing 4-25-2; applicable only on a shot. 4-25-1 requires the inability of either player to get singular control without undue roughness. Neither apply to the OP. No way I'm calling a held ball with one player's hand and one player's hip.

Indianaref

bainsey wrote
Look at it this way. A-1 goes up for a shot, which is blocked by B-2, who pins the ball to A-1's shooting hand. By rule, this is a held ball.

Simply put, the ball is pinned between two opposing players. If the resulting movement would be a travel(as a blocked shot of an airborne player), then I say you'd have to go with a held ball.

Look at it this way...held ball is both opponents with hands, not hips:eek:

SECTION 25 HELD BALL
A held ball occurs when:
ART. 1 . . . Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.
ART. 2 . . . An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

rwest

Indianaref wrote
So I quess it's alright for A1 to stick the ball on the hip of A2 and run down the court?

That would be a travel as it violates the spirit of the rule. In order for you to travel you must first have control. If I pass you the ball and you are running up the court but bobble the ball while taking a few steps that is not a travel. However, if you intentionally bobble the ball while running up the court, I will call a travel. In the latter case if I deem you could have gained control but didn't so you could run up the court, I'm going to call a travel.

Indianaref

rwest wrote
That would be a travel as it violates the spirit of the rule. In order for you to travel you must first have control. If I pass you the ball and you are running up the court but bobble the ball while taking a few steps that is not a travel. However, if you intentionally bobble the ball while running up the court, I will call a travel. In the latter case if I deem you could have gained control but didn't so you could run up the court, I'm going to call a travel.

That's all good and I agree, however, in the OP the player never fumbled the ball, the ball never drops or slips from a player's grasp. That's why I say travel.

Adam

Indianaref wrote
That's all good and I agree, however, in the OP the player never fumbled the ball, the ball never drops or slips from a player's grasp. That's why I say travel.

When did the dribble end?

Indianaref

Snaqwells wrote
When did the dribble end?

When the ball came to rest in A1's hand.

Adam

Indianaref wrote
So I quess it's alright for A1 to stick the ball on the hip of A2 and run down the court?

Snaqwells wrote
Nah, as even if this slips through some loophole in the rules; I think it's safe to say it's an advantage not intended by the rules. If A1's purposefully sticking the ball on the hip of a teammate, I'd consider that control.

No offensive player in his right mind would do this with an opponent's hip on purpose; dribbling is both easier and more controlled.

Besides, it would just be easier to dribble and use A2 as a blocker. 😃

Besides, in that case I'd consider the hip to be part of the leg. 😀 Not that really takes away from your point, though, as he could use the teammate's back instead.

Adam

Indianaref wrote
When the ball came to rest in A1's hand.

But did it? I'm assuming that A1 is attempting to push the ball down in a dribble. It's not resting in his hand, it's resting on B1's hip. There's a difference.

Eastshire

It's nothing. A1 is still dribbling the ball.

4-15-4

The dribble ends when:

a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.

b. The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.

c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.

d. The ball touches or is touched by an opponent and causes the dribbler to lose control.

e. The ball becomes dead.

Let's examine them.

a - A1's hand is resting on the ball rather than the ball resting in A1's hand.
b - A1 is not palming or carrying the ball.
c - A1 is only touching the ball with one hand.
d - A1 has not lost control (yet)
e - The ball has not become dead.

Since the dribble has not ended, A1 cannot be guilty of traveling.

The R

Snaqwells wrote
But did it? I'm assuming that A1 is attempting to push the ball down in a dribble. It's not resting in his hand, it's resting on B1's hip. There's a difference.

Yes A1's hand is on top of the ball attempting to keep dribbling towards the goal. B1's hip ,whom was running beside, got between the ball and the floor during the dribble.

Indianaref

Snaqwells wrote
But did it? I'm assuming that A1 is attempting to push the ball down in a dribble. It's not resting in his hand, it's resting on B1's hip. There's a difference.

What if A1 was attempting to push the ball down and his own d#mn hip got in the way?

Adam

The R wrote
Yes A1's hand is on top of the ball attempting to keep dribbling towards the goal. B1's hip ,whom was running beside, got between the ball and the floor during the dribble.

Yeah, in that case, I've got an on-going dribble and thus no travel.