as a crew...

Adam

DLH17 wrote
Exactly. I'm tracking with you, vbz. Which is the reason I'm not telling everyone in pre-game that I might "miss" some contact.

No way do I say it that way. Rather, I say something similar to this, "my partners and I will be working as a team to catch as much illegal contact as possible.".

Wait a second, are you talking about the pregame meeting with the coaches? 😮

Judtech

VB here are .02 from a fellow Commonwealther:
You made the right call. Some officials think that getting the OB correct is the most difficult call in a game.
I was brought up in the school that most rebounding fouls should come from the C and/or T. It is very difficult for an L to see a push in the back.
What the other officials MIGHT have been thinking was that you saw the push in the back, and passed on it in favor of just awarding the ball to A. When you gave it to B, they were *&$%ed. (and you SHOULD have given it to B based on what you saw)
As for addressing the guys later, I would have said something to the effect "yeah, if I had seen the push I might have given it to A, but since all I saw was A touch it last I had to go with that." It is VERY non committal and should keep you out of any hotwater with any local politics.
Drop me a line if you head over to the Central part of the Commonwealth!

DLH17

Snaqwells wrote
Wait a second, are you talking about the pregame meeting with the coaches? :eek:

I thought that is what the other poster was implying since the angry B coach was part of the discussion.

I would choose not to say the words "I might miss some contact" no matter who I'm talking to....partners or otherwise. DEF NOT a coach, at any time.

JRutledge

Snaqwells wrote
Knowing what to say, how to say it, and to whom to say it are important traits no matter what part of life we're discussing. It's also different than walking on egg shells.

Here is the relevant comment from the OP: "questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets)."

I took this to mean that this group was, essentially, part of my #3 above. It doesn't mean the OP shouldn't or couldn't have probed deeper, but I think it does imply that he needs to be professional in how he brings it up. As scrapper points out, there are ways to do this by bringing it back upon yourself. For me, I can still use the "I just want to know how it's done here" card. In the OP, I could have said, "I just want to know how you guys do it so I'm consistent, but I was taught to come in with a foul in that situation. Are you saying it's expected to wait until the lead asks for help on this play?"

Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but sometimes it just is.

All I am saying is you cannot officiate in fear. You have to officiate as if you are just as good as the people you are dealing with. If there is a conflict, handle it professionally. And if there is a conflict, then know your place in that conflict. That is why the term "silence cannot be quoted" works in so many areas. But not talking about the play honestly is not good IMO. And I think stature of an official is based more on accomplishment then simply years of experience. We have many guys that have been around for 20 years but cannot work a playoff game. I would be more concerned about butting heads with the state final/college official than just a guy that I worked with that has been doing this for 15 years.

Peace

Adam

DLH17 wrote
I thought that is what the other poster was implying since the angry B coach was part of the discussion.

I would choose not to say the words "I might miss some contact" no matter who I'm talking to....partners or otherwise. DEF NOT a coach, at any time.

Personally, if I'm talking to other officials, it really goes without saying. I don't even get into that arena with coaches in a game setting, though. I wouldn't even say the following to a coach:

DLH17 wrote
"my partners and I will be working as a team to catch as much illegal contact as possible.".

It's almost as bad as listing the year's POEs and saying you're watching for them.

Adam

JRutledge wrote
All I am saying is you cannot officiate in fear. You have to officiate as if you are just as good as the people you are dealing with. If there is a conflict, handle it professionally. And if there is a conflict, then know your place in that conflict. That is why the term "silence cannot be quoted" works in so many areas. But not talking about the play honestly is not good IMO. And I think stature of an official is based more on accomplishment then simply years of experience. We have many guys that have been around for 20 years but cannot work a playoff game. I would be more concerned about butting heads with the state final/college official than just a guy that I worked with that has been doing this for 15 years.

Peace

Agreed.

DLH17

Snaqwells wrote
Personally, if I'm talking to other officials, it really goes without saying. I don't even get into that arena with coaches in a game setting, though. I wouldn't even say the following to a coach:

It's almost as bad as listing the year's POEs and saying you're watching for them.

Agreed.

Raymond

vbzebra wrote
I may have been too close to the play, but as they were fighting for the rebound in that quick tip second, i was looking up top to see who tipped it last. This is where my partner said B1 was 'over the back' of A1, causing A1 to touch it last. Said he was hoping i'd give the ball back to A1, to 'save B1 a foul'.

Your partner needs to put air in his whistle if the foul is that obvious.

DLH17 wrote
Exactly. I'm tracking with you, vbz. Which is the reason I'm not telling everyone in pre-game that I might "miss" some contact.

No way do I say it that way. Rather, I say something similar to this, "my partners and I will be working as a team to catch as much illegal contact as possible.".

Just based on that, I say your coaches meetings are to lengthy.

MD Longhorn

DLH17 wrote
Rather, I say something similar to this, "my partners and I will be working as a team to catch as much illegal contact as possible.".

Do you also tell them that you will be crediting a team with 2 points per basket unless the shot is made with 2 feet behind the 3 point line, in which case you will award 3 points? 🙂

My point ... don't say stuff like this. Of course you're out there to enforce the rules... they know this. Say the CYA stuff, and anything the assignor wants reinforced for whatever reason.

One of my pet peeves is an umpire in baseball/softball (strangely I almost never come across this in football, basketball, or volleyball) who uses the plate conference to either teach a rule or explain that we will be calling by the rules, or (with, perhaps, the exception of the 1st week of a season) "the infield fly rule is in effect" or "Dropped 3rd strike is in effect." Again ... Say the CYA, check the lineups, point out potential field problems or odd ground rules if any ... and go.

Adam

mbcrowder wrote
One of my pet peeves is an umpire in baseball/softball (strangely I almost never come across this in football, basketball, or volleyball) who uses the plate conference to either teach a rule or explain that we will be calling by the rules, or (with, perhaps, the exception of the 1st week of a season) "the infield fly rule is in effect" or "Dropped 3rd strike is in effect." Again ... Say the CYA, check the lineups, point out potential field problems or odd ground rules if any ... and go.

I've seen it in basketball; correctable error rule. Same guy also gives the "black line all the way around" speech to the players. But, he was a great partner once the ball went up.

BillyMac

DLH17 wrote
If there was a push on the play by player B, and the ball goes OOB, the resulting OOB violation on player B is perfectly acceptable in most game situations I've seen.

I'm assuming that in the quote above that the ball actually went off player A, but the official chose to give the ball to Team A rather than call a foul against player B. If this is actually a close out of bounds call, and the possible foul is a close call as well, I've seen veteran officials make such a call. In fact, in the past, I've made this call myself several times. However, in this modern era, when every single play, in every single game, is videotaped by a coach, or a parent, in some cases with a cell phone, I am now hesitant to make such a call. Now, as the lead, I simply try as hard as I can to make the correct call, it's either out of bounds off player A, or it's a foul on Player B. If my partner, at the trail, wants of offer me some help, I'm more than glad to listen to the advice, but I try not to make up "make up calls" anymore.

Adam

BillyMac wrote
I'm assuming that in the quote above that the ball actually went off player A, but the official chose to give the ball to Team A rather than call a foul against player B. If this is actually a close out of bounds call, and the possible foul is a close call as well, I've seen veteran officials make such a call. In fact, in the past, I've made this call myself several times. However, in this modern era, when every single play, in every single game, is videotaped by a coach, or a parent, in some cases with a cell phone, I am now hesitant to make such a call. Now, as the lead, I simply try as hard as I can to make the correct call, it's either out of bounds off player A, or it's a foul on Player B. If my partner, at the trail, wants of offer me some help, I'm more than glad to listen to the advice, but I try not to make up "make up calls" anymore.

It's still the expected call in some areas, BillyMac.

DLH17

mbcrowder wrote
Do you also tell them that you will be crediting a team with 2 points per basket unless the shot is made with 2 feet behind the 3 point line, in which case you will award 3 points? 🙂

My point ... don't say stuff like this. Of course you're out there to enforce the rules... they know this. Say the CYA stuff, and anything the assignor wants reinforced for whatever reason.

One of my pet peeves is an umpire in baseball/softball (strangely I almost never come across this in football, basketball, or volleyball) who uses the plate conference to either teach a rule or explain that we will be calling by the rules, or (with, perhaps, the exception of the 1st week of a season) "the infield fly rule is in effect" or "Dropped 3rd strike is in effect." Again ... Say the CYA, check the lineups, point out potential field problems or odd ground rules if any ... and go.

Read pg 4 of this thread for context.

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