forfeit because of religious beliefs

Adam

SCalScoreKeeper wrote
I agree that this school did the right thing by forfeiting and sticking to their religious beliefs! We have some Seventh-Day adventist school in our section and every time a playoff game falls within their Sabbath the powers that be are always open to moving game times where it won't be an issue. The school in question here offered a solution that would've allowed this game to be played. If the WIAA is about that state tournament experience then they should have agreed to their solution which would allow these student athletes to participate.

Honestly didn't read the article that closely, but sometimes it comes down to venue availability, hardship on the other team, etc. And sometimes, the governing body just doesn't want to set a precedent by making the change.

SAJ

"As to the request that, could we do some rescheduling to deal with this particular issue, that would negatively impact the schedule for all 31 of the other teams involved," WIAA executive director Mike Colbrese told the Yakima Herald-Republic.

"And if we were to go off-site with (any rescheduling)," he continued, "we've basically taken both teams out of their schedule and they end up playing their game at night, not in the afternoon. And they're also not getting that state tournament experience, which is really what the whole thing is about."

uh, no it's not.

this scenario turned out much better for that "state tournament experience", right Mr. Colbrese?

mbyron

I think it was handled correctly. The state does its thing, and if the religious folk choose not to participate for whatever reason, it's their right to forfeit.

ref3808

Essentially these children were penalized for adhering to and practicing their faith. The game time and/or location should have been changed. It's the WIAA that should be penalized, not the school.

Jurassic Referee

mbyron wrote
I think it was handled correctly. The state does its thing, and if the religious folk choose not to participate for whatever reason, it's their right to forfeit.

Yup, and the further away we(officials) keep from becoming involved in any matter like this, the better.

It's just not our bidness in any way, no matter what anyone's personal feeling may be.

BillyMac

ref3808 wrote
Essentially these children were penalized for adhering to and practicing their faith.

Everyone has their own cross to bear.

just another ref

If you change it for one group, another group will ask/demand that you change it back/change it to another time/change some other game.

This part is not unprecedented.

BillyMac

just another ref wrote
If you change it for one group, another group will ask/demand that you change it back/change it to another time/change some other game.

My assigner knows that I only officiate on days of the week that end in "day" and in months that have at least twenty-eight days. For me to officiate on days that do not match this strict criterion would go against my personal code of conduct. I'm not changing for my assigner, nor do I expect for him to change the rules for me.

just another ref

BillyMac wrote
My assigner knows that I only officiate on days of the week that end in "day" and in months that have at least twenty-eight days. For me to officiate on days that do not match this strict criterion would go against my personal code of conduct. I'm not changing for my assigner, nor do I expect for him to change the rules for me.

So you've already been drinking enough today that you consider yourself a group? 😀

BillyMac

just another ref wrote
So you've already been drinking enough today that you consider yourself a group?

It Saturday. February has twenty-eight days. And it's five o'clock somewhere. I know it's a strict personal code of conduct, but it's Lent, and I feel the need to sacrifice.

rockyroad

ref3808 wrote
Essentially these children were penalized for adhering to and practicing their faith. The game time and/or location should have been changed. It's the WIAA that should be penalized, not the school.

The WIAA has been VERY clear over the last 20 or so years that game times are set in advance and will not be changed to cater to one group or another. If they make the change for this group, they have to be willing to postpone Friday night semi-final games until Saturday night and then move the Championship games to Sunday - thus affecting everyone else involved in a negative way. That makes no sense.

I admire these kids, their coaches, their Rabbi's and their parents for sticking to their beliefs. But they knew what the situation was going in - this did not take them by surprise. They made their choices. They were not penalized or punished - they chose.

BillyMac

rockyroad wrote
They made their choices. They were not penalized or punished, they chose.

They probably got more of a positive life lesson from this situation than if they had played the game. After all, basketball is only a game. Pretty classy showing up to shake hands with the other team. Look at the smiles on their faces in the photo. The smiles really look sincere, not forced. Hopefully the other team didn't think this was, in any way, unsporting.

Camron Rust

rockyroad wrote
The WIAA has been VERY clear over the last 20 or so years that game times are set in advance and will not be changed to cater to one group or another. If they make the change for this group, they have to be willing to postpone Friday night semi-final games until Saturday night and then move the Championship games to Sunday - thus affecting everyone else involved in a negative way. That makes no sense.

I admire these kids, their coaches, their Rabbi's and their parents for sticking to their beliefs. But they knew what the situation was going in - this did not take them by surprise. They made their choices. They were not penalized or punished - they chose.

The big question is whether they regularly schedule games on Sunday or not? If not, why? Of course they, and most states, don't in order to not infringe on the beliefs of the majority of religious schools.

Oregon has had the same issue with an Adventist school. It went all the way to the State Supreme Court and they, perhaps based on an Oregon-specific law, ruled that the OSAA must make reasonable accomodations. (All of the intermediate courts had ruled the same way but the OSAA pursued appeals all the way to the top.) Reasonable was not spelled out but moving the time to before sundown on Friday or after sundown on Saturday was ruled to be reasonable. Neither type of change really affects anyone negatively so the only argument against it is really just an anti-religion argument (or anti-Adventist, or other similar less common groups).

Mark Padgett

Without commenting on what the state should or should not have done, I have to say I really admire those girls for adhering to their beliefs. They should be proud of themselves and I wish them the best in the future. 🙂

Judtech

BillyMac wrote
Everyone has their own cross to bear.

Seriously? You are going to use that line with regards to a Jewish school? Judging by your tag line at the bottom (Jn 3:16) you should probably know the ramifications and the meaning of that.
The law does allow for reasonable accomodation. I would have like to heard more of the reasons why they would not play the game at a later time.

just another ref

Judtech wrote
The law does allow for reasonable accomodation. I would have like to heard more of the reasons why they would not play the game at a later time.

Can you give a reference to the law in question. Just doesn't sound like a legal matter to me.

Judtech

Title 7 of the '64 Civil Rights Act. (not the more 'popular' Title IX) Religious beleifes must be reasonably accomodated. (not causing 'undue hardship') Flexible schedules being one of them.
However, I applaud the decsion to not make a "mountain out of a mole hill" in this situation. I agree that the players will learn more in the long run. It would have benefitted no one, and fostered IMO an 'us v them' mentality that helps no one.

Adam

Judtech wrote
Seriously? You are going to use that line with regards to a Jewish school? Judging by your tag line at the bottom (Jn 3:16) you should probably know the ramifications and the meaning of that.

Good grief. Knowing Billy as I do, I'm willing to stipulate that the phrase was not accidental. So?

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
Everyone has their own cross to bear.

Judtech wrote
Seriously? You are going to use that line with regards to a Jewish school? Judging by your tag line at the bottom (Jn 3:16) you should probably know the ramifications and the meaning of that.

Snaqwells wrote
Good grief. Knowing Billy as I do, I'm willing to stipulate that the phrase was not accidental. So?

Thus the title, "Mixed Up Metaphor ???".

If I, or Winston Churchill, have offended any members of the Jewish faith, I sincerely apologize. Just say the word and I will delete my post.

Remember, many of us on the Forum, Christians, Jews, and Muslims, are all sons of Abraham. And, Jesus was a Jew.

just another ref

Judtech wrote
Title 7 of the '64 Civil Rights Act. (not the more 'popular' Title IX) Religious beliefs must be reasonably accommodated. (not causing 'undue hardship') Flexible schedules being one of them.

And has it been definitively stated by anyone in authority that this law would ever apply in this situation? Reasonably accommodated. One of the mothers of all broad terms. And is missing a consolation game undue hardship? To ask to change the schedule of a tournament, which was made probably a year in advance, to accommodate any one group for any reason sounds like a lot to ask to me.