Alternating Possession Arrow.

Adam

Jerry Blum wrote
Do you have a rule reference that supports not switching the possession arrow if B commits a kicking violation? Or a specific case from the case book?

I don't have to like it, but there's a case play for this.

mbyron wrote
I would handle it according to 4.42.5, which seems to be your exact case.

This would also apply if the B commits a different violation during the throwin, such as punching the ball, stepping OOB, or excessively swinging elbows.

zm1283

Jerry Blum wrote
So are you saying that option 1 where the ball touches or is legally touched in bounds is the situation that covers this? Violation option only covers the throw-in team.

Do you have a rule reference that supports not switching the possession arrow if B commits a kicking violation? Or a specific case from the case book?

The violation for kicking the ball happens before the throw-in ends.

9-4's penalty says that the ball is dead when the violation occurs and awarded to the opponents for a throw-in at the designated spot nearest the violation.

It's no longer an AP throw-in following the violation.

bbcof83

Jerry Blum wrote
So are you saying that option 1 where the ball touches or is legally touched in bounds is the situation that covers this? Violation option only covers the throw-in team.

Do you have a rule reference that supports not switching the possession arrow if B commits a kicking violation? Or a specific case from the case book?

As mbyron said the case book covers it specifically.

Adam

The key here is that NFHS has determined the arrow entitles a team to a complete throwin, not just the start of a throwin. This is why it matters when the throwin ends.

And I think it's an unfortunate loophole that while A will have used their arrow if they commit a throwin violation, they retain it if they commit a foul.

BktBallRef

Jerry Blum wrote
My question is what happens if the ball is kicked by B before touching anyone legally in bounds? Because 4-42 art.5 states that a throwin ends in three different ways:

The passed ball touches or is legally touched by another player inbounds.

The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out of bounds, except as in 7-5-7. End line throwin following a goal or awarded goal.

The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.

[/LIST]Team A gets the ball for an AP throw-in.
B1 kicks the throw-in pass.
A kick is not a legal touch, therefore the throw-in did not legally end.
Since the throw-in did not legally end, the arrow is not changed.
Team A now gets the ball for a throw-in because of the kick.

Raymond

Jerry Blum wrote
This is a situation that I have been unable to find the correct solution for. As far as alternating possession throw-ins go, the arrow gets reversed when the throw-in ends or if A commits a violation. If there is a foul prior to the throw-in ending the arrow is not reversed and A would still get the next alternating possession throw-in.

My question is what happens if the ball is kicked by B before touching anyone legally in bounds? Because 4-42 art.5 states that a throwin ends in three different ways:

The passed ball touches or is legally touched by another player inbounds.

The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out of bounds, except as in 7-5-7. End line throwin following a goal or awarded goal.

The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.

The only thing in that that might cause me to think the violation technically occurs after the throw-in ends is that it says the "passed ball touches or legally touches" in the first list item.

Please let me know how you guys would handle this situation.

Touches = passive

Legally touches = active

mbyron

BktBallRef wrote
[/LIST]Team A gets the ball for an AP throw-in.
B1 kicks the throw-in pass.
A kick is not a legal touch, therefore the throw-in did not legally end.
Since the throw-in did not legally end, the arrow is not changed.
Team A now gets the ball for a throw-in because of the kick.

Luckily, that's exactly what 4.42.5 says! 😉

Adam

BadNewsRef wrote
~~Touches~~ Is touched by = passive

Legally touches = active

Is that what you meant?

Adam

mbyron wrote
Luckily, that's exactly what 4.42.5 says! 😉

Wow, BktBallRef really dodged a bullet there.

Raymond

BadNewsRef wrote
Touches = passive

Legally touches = active

Snaqwells wrote
Is that what you meant?

Passive as in the ball touches a player inadvertently or accidentally, so to speak. Active as in the player making a play or doing an action that leads to him touching the ball.

I'm using it as a guide as to why "kicking the ball" wouldn't fall under the "The passed ball touches ... another player inbounds.
" portion of the rule.

Nevadaref

mbyron wrote
Luckily, that's exactly what 4.42.5 says! 😉

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in.
A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking
violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to
where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the throw-in was not
contacted legally, the throw-in had not ended. The arrow remains with Team A for
the next alternating-possession throw-in. (6-4-4)