End of game situation

TonyT

Snaqwells wrote
"It's the right thing to do, coach."

Again, if we didn't see the clock, game over.

If you know for sure that the whistle beat the horn how can you not put at least 1 second back on the clock? By the time you looked at the clock there would of been some time run off, as was in this case the ears beat the eyes.

rwest

M&M Guy wrote
What does the rule book say you should do?

If you have definite knowledge. I have definite knowledge that less than 1 second but more than 0 seconds was left in the game.

M&M Guy

rwest wrote
If you have definite knowledge. I have definite knowledge that less than 1 second but more than 0 seconds was left in the game.

Is that how the rule book defines "definite knowledge"? If so, what rule or case play are you using?

M&M Guy

TonyT wrote
If you know for sure that the whistle beat the horn how can you not put at least 1 second back on the clock? By the time you looked at the clock there would of been some time run off, as was in this case the ears beat the eyes.

...sigh...

Has anyone looked at rule 5-6-2 yet?

mbyron

M&M Guy wrote
...sigh...

Has anyone looked at rule 5-6-2 yet?

Rule 5-6:
"ART. 2 . . . Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired."

M&M Guy

mbyron wrote
Rule 5-6:
"ART. 2 . . . Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired."

...trying...hard...not...to...explode...

Oh, what the hell: shut up. 😀

Adam

flaref wrote
sorry about the harshness...I'm actually very mild mannered...and not nearly as cocky as it may appear in my writing...but if somebody asks me a question...I'll give em my honest answer...my solution here works correctly 99.999% of the time...I will take responsibility for the one time in the several thousand circumstances that it wouldn't. If I have DEFINATE KNOWLEDGE that the whistle beat the horn, then the game can't possibly end.

I think you misunderstood my response. I'm trying to be careful in my response, because I don't like to question the integrity of other officials. I'm assuming you may have worded it incorrectly or something, but it came across that you'd be willing to say you had definite knowledge when you really didn't. I have a problem with that, and since you seem to value direct responses and honest opinions; there it is.

Adam

TonyT wrote
If you know for sure that the whistle beat the horn how can you not put at least 1 second back on the clock? By the time you looked at the clock there would of been some time run off, as was in this case the ears beat the eyes.

If I look up and see 1 on the clock, I'll put it up there. If I look up and see 0, there's nothing I can do. Definitely knowledge is the key here, and we don't have it. Definite knowledge, at the minimum, means you have a minimum number to put up on the clock. If, when I blow my whistle, I look up and see the clock running and .8 on the clock as it ticks down, I'll put .8 up even though I know there was more time. I don't know how much more, so I can't put it up there. In this scenario, if I look up and it's already down to 0, I have no knowledge of how much time to put up.

Adam

rwest wrote
If you have definite knowledge. I have definite knowledge that less than 1 second but more than 0 seconds was left in the game.

How much time you going to put back on? .2? .3? .4? .5? .6?

Berkut

Snaqwells wrote
How much time you going to put back on? .2? .3? .4? .5? .6?

Day or night game?

rwest

Snaqwells wrote
How much time you going to put back on? .2? .3? .4? .5? .6?

Let's use another example. You call traveling. Let's say it is at the 2:15 mark. However, you didn't check to see if the clock stopped and you don't know the time when you called traveling. You look up at 2:10 and the clock is still running. At 2:05 you get the clock operator to stop the clock. Are you going to put 2:10 on the clock? If so why? Did you have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on the clock? No! You knew that at least 5 seconds had expired but not that 10 seconds had run off. That's not definite knowledge. What are you going to do in this scenario?

Adam

rwest wrote
Let's use another example. You call traveling. Let's say it is at the 2:15 mark. However, you didn't check to see if the clock stopped and you don't know the time when you called traveling. You look up at 2:10 and the clock is still running. At 2:05 you get the clock operator to stop the clock. Are you going to put 2:10 on the clock? If so why? Did you have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on the clock? No! You knew that at least 5 seconds had expired but not that 10 seconds had run off. That's not definite knowledge. What are you going to do in this scenario?

Good example. I put back what I know should go back on. I'll set the clock at 2:10 here, because I know at least that much came off. In the OP, I don't "know" what came off after the whistle, so I can't put anything back on.

Different example. Throwin in the backcourt. You glance at the clock just before handing it and see it's at 3:00. Ball is inbounded and there's pressure so you can't look at the clock. Your BC count gets to 8, then he crosses and has a few seconds without any count before a defender approaches. You start a 5 second count and get to 3 before he passes. You look at the clock and it hasn't moved. How much time do you take off?

Raymond

rwest wrote
...
For those who suggest we don't put time on the clock, what are you going to do if the clock operator is biased and allows the clock to run out knowing that the clock doesn't show tenths of a second? ...

You mean "what are going to do when we as a crew failed to do our jobs and observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew?"

And reading through a lot these answers some are going to

set aside the rule book and make up a time...or...
lie to the table personnel and coaches and tell them you observed #.# on the clock. Which means you will also have to evetually lie to your supervisor about the situation.

So to summarize. As a crew all 3 (or 2) officials fail to do their duty and observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew and the way to rectify the situation is to either lie or ignore the rule book.

Where is Nevada when you need him. 😮

rwest

Snaqwells wrote
Good example. I put back what I know should go back on. I'll set the clock at 2:10 here, because I know at least that much came off. In the OP, I don't "know" what came off after the whistle, so I can't put anything back on.

Ah, but you don't have definite knowledge. You know that at least 5 seconds have elapsed, but that's not what "definite" means. It means "exact". You don't have exact knowledge. Therefore, by your interpretation of the rule you can't put 5 seconds back on the clock. I agree with you that's what we should do, but you can't by your interpretation.

Snaqwells wrote
Different example. Throwin in the backcourt. You glance at the clock just before handing it and see it's at 3:00. Ball is inbounded and there's pressure so you can't look at the clock. Your BC count gets to 8, then he crosses and has a few seconds without any count before a defender approaches. You start a 5 second count and get to 3 before he passes. You look at the clock and it hasn't moved. How much time do you take off?

By your definition of the word "definite", I don't take any off. But I would take off at least 11 seconds because I know that 8 plus 3 is eleven but I don't know how many seconds elapsed between gaining front court status and starting my 5 second closely guarded count. This is actually a good example that proves my point. If I know that I granted time out before the buzzer sounded, I know that there is some time that should be placed on the clock. I know that there is less than 1 but more than 0 seconds left. In your example we know that at least 11 seconds has elapsed but could be more. So if you say I can't put .4 seconds on the clock in my example because I don't have definite knowledge, neither can you take 11 seconds off for the same reason. You don't have definite knowledge.

M&M Guy

rwest wrote
Let's use another example. You call traveling. Let's say it is at the 2:15 mark. However, you didn't check to see if the clock stopped and you don't know the time when you called traveling. You look up at 2:10 and the clock is still running. At 2:05 you get the clock operator to stop the clock. Are you going to put 2:10 on the clock? If so why? Did you have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on the clock? No! You knew that at least 5 seconds had expired but not that 10 seconds had run off. That's not definite knowledge. What are you going to do in this scenario?

Hmm...let me think...how about follow the rules? How about 5-10-1: "The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."

So, what happens if an official didn't look at the clock? How about 5-10-2: "If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction".

I've given specific rules and case plays. All you've given are "what if's" and "what's fair". I would be more than willing to listen to your arguments if you can supply some sort of rule backing to your statements.

rwest

BadNewsRef wrote
You mean "what are going to do when we as a crew failed to do our jobs and observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew?"

And reading through a lot these answers some are going to

set aside the rule book and make up a time...or...

lie to the table personnel and coaches and tell them you observed #.# on the clock. Which means you will also have to evetually lie to your supervisor about the situation.

So to summarize. As a crew all 3 (or 2) officials fail to do their duty and observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew and the way to rectify the situation is to either lie or ignore the rule book.

Where is Nevada when you need him. :eek:

The crew did not fail to do their job. The clock operator was biased and failed to stop the clock on purpose. We can't see how much time is on the clock because the clock doesn't show tenths of a second. I've never suggested setting aside a rule so please don't accuse me of that. I'm suggesting that if you go by the strick definition of definite, you can never put time on the clock because we never know exactly how much time is on the clock when we blew our whistle. There will always be a lag.

Raymond

rwest wrote
The crew did not fail to do their job. The clock operator was biased and failed to stop the clock on purpose. We can't see how much time is on the clock because the clock doesn't show tenths of a second. I've never suggested setting aside a rule so please don't accuse me of that. I'm suggesting that is you go by the strick definition of definite, you can never put time on the clock because we never know exactly how much time is on the clock when we blew are whistle. There will always be a lag.

Whatever number you observed on the clock is the number you put up. If the crew is doing its job properly then it wouldn't matter how bias the timer was. You hear/blow the whistle and you immediately glance at the clock, especially in an end-of-game situation.

As I stated earlier, we're talking about "rule book" definition not the dictionary definition.

rwest

BadNewsRef wrote
Whatever number you observed on the clock is the number you put up. If the crew is doing its job properly then it wouldn't matter how bias the timer was. You hear/blow the whistle and you immediately glance at the clock, especially in an end-of-game situation.

As I stated earlier, we're talking about "rule book" definition not the dictionary definition.

Is the word "definite" defined in the rule book?

Raymond

rwest wrote
Is the word "definite" defined in the rule book?

I hate to be redundant (inside joke):

M&M Guy wrote
Hmm...let me think...how about follow the rules? How about 5-10-1: "The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."

So, what happens if an official didn't look at the clock? How about 5-10-2: "If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction".
...

rwest

BadNewsRef wrote
Whatever number you observed on the clock is the number you put up. If the crew is doing its job properly then it wouldn't matter how bias the timer was. You hear/blow the whistle and you immediately glance at the clock, especially in an end-of-game situation.

As I stated earlier, we're talking about "rule book" definition not the dictionary definition.

If I blow my whistle and I look up and the clock shows 0 seconds and then some time later (obviously less than a second) the horn sounds, what are you going to do? It has nothing to do with the crew failing to do their job. And a biased clock operator can have a huge impact on the game.

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