Backcourt Violation EARLY in the Game?

CMHCoachNRef

A1 and B1 are the jumpers for the opening tip. A1 taps the ball forward toward A2 who is standing with both feet just in his front court. The tap is deflected by B2 toward the division line. A2 jumps into the air from the front court, catches the ball in the air and lands in the back court.

Using Rule 9-9-3 (exceptions include a defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in a player may legally jump from his/her front court, secure control of the ball with one or both feet in the back court), combined with Case 9.9.1 D (A1's pass near the division line is deflected by B1; A2 jumps from Team A's front court, catches the ball in the air and lands in the back court. RULING: Backcourt violation on team A), the tip play should also be called a back court violation on Team A, correct?

bob jenkins

CMHCoachNRef wrote
A1 and B1 are the jumpers for the opening tip. A1 taps the ball forward toward A2 who is standing with both feet just in his front court. The tap is deflected by B2 toward the division line. A2 jumps into the air from the front court, catches the ball in the air and lands in the back court.

Using Rule 9-9-3 (exceptions include a defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in a player may legally jump from his/her front court, secure control of the ball with one or both feet in the back court), combined with Case 9.9.1 D (A1's pass near the division line is deflected by B1; A2 jumps from Team A's front court, catches the ball in the air and lands in the back court. RULING: Backcourt violation on team A), the tip play should also be called a back court violation on Team A, correct?

That's how I'd rule (but I'd also like to change the interp).

mick

CMHCoachNRef wrote
A1 and B1 are the jumpers for the opening tip. A1 taps the ball forward toward A2 who is standing with both feet just in his front court. The tap is deflected by B2 toward the division line. A2 jumps into the air from the front court, catches the ball in the air and lands in the back court.

Using Rule 9-9-3 (exceptions include a defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in a player may legally jump from his/her front court, secure control of the ball with one or both feet in the back court), combined with Case 9.9.1 D (A1's pass near the division line is deflected by B1; A2 jumps from Team A's front court, catches the ball in the air and lands in the back court. RULING: Backcourt violation on team A), the tip play should also be called a back court violation on Team A, correct?

I fail to recognize where team control was demonstrated on the tip/deflection play.
No violation.

CMHCoachNRef

bob jenkins wrote
That's how I'd rule (but I'd also like to change the interp).

Bob, I couldn't agree more. This call, is related, but different from, my other post concerning the purpose of the division line and the hard-to-explain and harder-to-justify backcourt violation rules. In this case, the rule calls for a back court violation. I think that even those who feel that the purpose of all of these violations is to create more turnovers for the defensive team would have to concede that this one fails to meet that criteria (1 second into the game).

This situation is yet another that would be "fixed" (assuming that you agree that this is a bad rule) by a change in the division line rule.

bob jenkins

mick wrote
I fail to recognize where team control was demonstrated on the tip/deflection play.
No violation.

TC when A2 caught the ball in the air.

CMHCoachNRef

mick wrote
I fail to recognize where team control was demonstrated on the tip/deflection play.
No violation.

Mick,
This play is no different than case 9.9.1 D. The player has front court status when he jumps into the air to catch the ball. When he catches the ball, he still has front court status (and team control). As soon as he lands in the back court, he has committed a violation, correct? If not, how is this situation different from 9.9.1 D?

Indianaref

mick wrote
I fail to recognize where team control was demonstrated on the tip/deflection play.
No violation.

As I read the play, team control is established when airborne A2 catches the ball. When he catches the ball he has front court status. When he lands, he has violated.

mick

CMHCoachNRef wrote
Mick,
This play is no different than case 9.9.1 D. The player has front court status when he jumps into the air to catch the ball. When he catches the ball, he still has front court status (and team control). As soon as he lands in the back court, he has committed a violation, correct? If not, how is this situation different from 9.9.1 D?

In 9.9.1D, team control is implied by the phrase * A1's pass *.

Indianaref

mick wrote
In 9.9.1D, team control is implied by the phrase * A1's pass *.

In this OP case, team control is established with A2' catch.

mbyron

I don't know if this is the reason Bob wants to change the interp, but here's mine: for a throw-in, we have an exception that allows a player to be in FC, jump, catch the ball, and land in BC.

Why not extend that to any play where a player in the air establishes team control? That would make the OP legal, as well as an intercepted pass (anyone ever call that violation?).

Indianaref

mbyron wrote
I don't know if this is the reason Bob wants to change the interp, but here's mine: for a throw-in, we have an exception that allows a player to be in FC, jump, catch the ball, and land in BC.

Why not extend that to any play where a player in the air establishes team control? That would make the OP legal, as well as an intercepted pass (anyone ever call that violation?).

Along with Bob and you, I 3rd that motion. The I's have it.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

CMHCoachNRef wrote
A1 and B1 are the jumpers for the opening tip. A1 taps the ball forward toward A2 who is standing with both feet just in his front court. The tap is deflected by B2 toward the division line. A2 jumps into the air from the front court, catches the ball in the air and lands in the back court.

Using Rule 9-9-3 (exceptions include a defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in a player may legally jump from his/her front court, secure control of the ball with one or both feet in the back court), combined with Case 9.9.1 D (A1's pass near the division line is deflected by B1; A2 jumps from Team A's front court, catches the ball in the air and lands in the back court. RULING: Backcourt violation on team A), the tip play should also be called a back court violation on Team A, correct?

The play described by CMHCoachNRef is a backcourt violation by Team A. Why is it a violation?

RULING: When did the jump ball end? It ended when B2 touched the ball that was tapped by jumper A1. The jump ball exception to the rule ended when the jump ball ended. When A2 caught the ball, he simultaneously established player and team control of the ball as well as giving the ball front court status because A2's airborne status was in Team A's frontcourt. When A2 landed in Team A's backcourt he was the first to touch the ball in the backcourt after Team A had caused the ball to go to its backcourt after it had been in Team A's frontcourt.

MTD, Sr.

mick

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
The play described by CMHCoachNRef is a backcourt violation by Team A. Why is it a violation?

RULING: When did the jump ball end? It ended when B2 touched the ball that was tapped by jumper A1. The jump ball exception to the rule ended when the jump ball ended. When A2 caught the ball, he simultaneously established player and team control of the ball as well as giving the ball front court status because A2's airborne status was in Team A's frontcourt. When A2 landed in Team A's backcourt he was the first to touch the ball in the backcourt after Team A had caused the ball to go to its backcourt after it had been in Team A's frontcourt.

MTD, Sr.

And why is A2 not a defensive player before he catches the ball and is allowed to land?

CMHCoachNRef

mick wrote
And why is A2 not a defensive player before he catches the ball and is allowed to land?

I would say that for A2 to be considered to be a defensive player, Team B would have to establish team control -- which has not happened, in this case.

[deleted]

CMHCoachNRef wrote
I would say that for A2 to be considered to be a defensive player, Team A would have to establish team control -- which has not happened, in this case.

😕 😕

Rich

Personally, I would make an exception for the action due to and immediately following the center jump. Every year there's at least one play that I swear is a backcourt violation right after the jump, but I'm the tosser and there's no way I have the distance or perspective to be 100% sure.

It's part of my pregame to discuss the period immediately after the jump:

(1) Look for a backcourt violation
(2) Be ready for a designed outlet/fast break off the tip. Nothing worse than a player getting hammered and the crew not ready or out of position for it. Get the foul if it happens.

mick

CMHCoachNRef wrote
I would say that for A2 to be considered to be a defensive player, Team A would have to establish team control -- which has not happened, in this case.

The team control issue,or lack there of, raises it's ugly head again.

CMHCoachNRef

Ch1town wrote
:confused: :confused:

Is that better (Team A changed to Team B)??? Oops....

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

mick wrote
And why is A2 not a defensive player before he catches the ball and is allowed to land?

Mick:

Whether A2 is a defensive player or not is not germane to the play. The jump ball ended when B2 touched the ball, therefore the exception to the rule is not longer in effect. See the rule references in the P.S.

MTD, Sr.

P.S.:

NFHS R4-S28-A3: "The jump ball begins when the ball leaves the referee’s hand(s) and ends when the touched ball contacts a nonjumper, the floor, a basket or backboard."

NFHS R9-S9-A3: "A player from the team not in control (defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in) may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt."

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

mick wrote
In 9.9.1D, team control is implied by the phrase * A1's pass *.

Mick:

Team Control is not implied in the Casebook Play 9.9.1, Situation D; the key to the ruling is that the Throw-in ended when the ball was touched by B1 thereby ending the throw-in and ending the exception to the Backcourt Violation Rule.

MTD, Sr.