Cut Block? Shotgun Formation

Patton

Originally posted by mcrowder
At Varsity, and at MOST JV, I would not Coach/Preventative Officiate.

What I'm talking about doing is if a kid has been legally blocking below the waist and all of a sudden he gets flagged because the QB went to a shotgun formation, he might not realize why. At the varsity level, I think it's OK to just say "you were flagged for IBB because the ball had left the free blocking zone". Now he and the rest of the team should realize the difference.

mcrowder

I could perhaps see that, especially if he seemed confused by the call... but I would not "preventative officiate" BEFORE a flag was thrown for this.

"Once we see it the first time as the R I go to the offensive huddle and remind the lineman it must be done immediatley if not it is a flag."

Sounds like telling them, after a LEGAL play, that another similar play would not be legal. This is what I would NOT do. Like others have said, it is more likely to confuse the kids than help.

Patton

Originally posted by mcrowder
I could perhaps see that, especially if he seemed confused by the call... but I would not "preventative officiate" BEFORE a flag was thrown for this.

"Once we see it the first time as the R I go to the offensive huddle and remind the lineman it must be done immediatley if not it is a flag."

Sounds like telling them, after a LEGAL play, that another similar play would not be legal. This is what I would NOT do. Like others have said, it is more likely to confuse the kids than help.

I believe were on the same page!!

jumpmaster

BoBo, this is interesting. Twice in the last week you have posted a question/issue that was specifically addressed by my Football Association within the previous 24 hours. Are you sure you aren't in Arkansas? 😀

This morning the Arkansas rules interpreter issued the following ruling on BBW while the quarterback was in the shotgun formation. Here it is:

If while in a shotgun formation, the lineman are in a three point stance, we will allow the lineman, on his initial charge, to block below the waist. If, however, the lineman are in a 2-point stance or the charge isn't immediate and the ball is snapped to a back at least 3+ yards behind the line of scrimmage, then any block below the waist will be rule illegal and there will be a penalty assessed. Just to reiterate, 3-point stance you can block below the waist on the initial charge in the shotgun. In a 2-point stance you cannot block below the waist when in the shotgun.

I for one think this is pretty good interp and specifically was driven by an series of injuries during the first half of the season.

cowbyfan1

Originally posted by Texoma_LJ
This exact topic was brought up at one of the preseason state meetings I attended (Ok) and we were instructed that in the shotgun the ball will leave the FBZ immediately in most instances, so BBW would be penalized in this situation.

I am in Oklahoma as well and it was decided that if the line cuts immediately after the snap then no flag. The line started their initial charge to cut block as soon as the snap happens, thus the block was started when the ball was in the free block zone, thus legal. If they come up and then cut we flag it.

Texoma_LJ

Cowboyfan...seems like someone needs to pass th eowrd along etter one way or the other.

BktBallRef

Originally posted by jumpmaster
BoBo, this is interesting. Twice in the last week you have posted a question/issue that was specifically addressed by my Football Association within the previous 24 hours. Are you sure you aren't in Arkansas? 😀

This morning the Arkansas rules interpreter issued the following ruling on BBW while the quarterback was in the shotgun formation. Here it is:

If while in a shotgun formation, the lineman are in a three point stance, we will allow the lineman, on his initial charge, to block below the waist. If, however, the lineman are in a 2-point stance or the charge isn't immediate and the ball is snapped to a back at least 3+ yards behind the line of scrimmage, then any block below the waist will be rule illegal and there will be a penalty assessed. Just to reiterate, 3-point stance you can block below the waist on the initial charge in the shotgun. In a 2-point stance you cannot block below the waist when in the shotgun.

I for one think this is pretty good interp and specifically was driven by an series of injuries during the first half of the season.

What has the stance got to do with it? 😕

I don't see that as an issue. I've seen kids pass block from a 2 point stance but I've also seen them immediately cut a defender.

jumpmaster

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Originally posted by jumpmaster
BoBo, this is interesting. Twice in the last week you have posted a question/issue that was specifically addressed by my Football Association within the previous 24 hours. Are you sure you aren't in Arkansas? 😀

This morning the Arkansas rules interpreter issued the following ruling on BBW while the quarterback was in the shotgun formation. Here it is:

If while in a shotgun formation, the lineman are in a three point stance, we will allow the lineman, on his initial charge, to block below the waist. If, however, the lineman are in a 2-point stance or the charge isn't immediate and the ball is snapped to a back at least 3+ yards behind the line of scrimmage, then any block below the waist will be rule illegal and there will be a penalty assessed. Just to reiterate, 3-point stance you can block below the waist on the initial charge in the shotgun. In a 2-point stance you cannot block below the waist when in the shotgun.

I for one think this is pretty good interp and specifically was driven by an series of injuries during the first half of the season.

What has the stance got to do with it? 😕

I don't see that as an issue. I've seen kids pass block from a 2 point stance but I've also seen them immediately cut a defender.

From a 2 point stance, the probability that a blow above a defender's knee is increased. This type of blow significantly increases the risk of a knee injury. Therefore, no 2 point stance BBW. From a 3 point stance, the interpreters felt that the likelihood of a knee injury is no greater than normal blocking. Therefore, the difference.

BktBallRef

The problem with is that it isn't what the rule says. There's not even a loose interp of the rule that says this.

Why would an OL be allowed to BBW if the QB is under center but not allowed to if he's in the shotgun? The risk of injury is no less because the QB is under center.

My point is that if 2 point stance blocking below the waist is illegal in the shotgun, it should be illegal in all plays. But it isn't.

I realize that you didn't invent this interp but to me, it's senseless. You either allow BBW when in the shotgun or you don't, period.

chiefgil

The linemen, on there initial charge, may legally BBW, as long as the ball is in the FBZ.

PSU213

Originally posted by chiefgil
The linemen, on there initial charge, may legally BBW, as long as the ball is in the FBZ.

Well, the real question is when does the ball leave the FBZ when A is in shotgun formation? Also, if the ball is in the zone, a lineman does not need to be on his/her initial charge for a BBW to be legal.

As for the original question, we allow a BBW if the charge happens right with the snap. Also, I agree with BktBallRef that the Arkansas interp. does not make a lot of sense with re. to the type of stance the players are in. I think you need to either say low blocks are legal or illegal when A is in shotgun formation, and don't bring up the type of stance the O-linemen are in.

parepat

Originally posted by mcrowder
At Varsity, and at MOST JV, I would not Coach/Preventative Officiate. The only "preventative officiating" that is appropriate at that level is the linesmen helping the WR's line up when they look out and say "I'm ON" or "I'm OFF". Maybe the occasional "Don't Do That" on mild extracurricular nonsense. Other than that, you should not be telling these kids how to block. If you have to flag it, I see no problem in coaching the COACH - and letting him handle it. (And I say MOST JV, instead of all, because there is the occasional JV game where one team is completely uncoached. Once they are getting killed on their own, preventative officiating is more appropriate)

At younger ages, I can understand telling them - but I would make it a point of telling the coach that you told them as well.

parepat

Originally posted by parepat

Originally posted by mcrowder
At Varsity, and at MOST JV, I would not Coach/Preventative Officiate. The only "preventative officiating" that is appropriate at that level is the linesmen helping the WR's line up when they look out and say "I'm ON" or "I'm OFF". Maybe the occasional "Don't Do That" on mild extracurricular nonsense. Other than that, you should not be telling these kids how to block. If you have to flag it, I see no problem in coaching the COACH - and letting him handle it. (And I say MOST JV, instead of all, because there is the occasional JV game where one team is completely uncoached. Once they are getting killed on their own, preventative officiating is more appropriate)

At younger ages, I can understand telling them - but I would make it a point of telling the coach that you told them as well.

Let's try this again! I absolutely disagree with your position on preventive officiating for a couple reasons.

1. Part of our role is to protect the player. If by warning a player about a rule can prevent a dangerous foul, then we should do it.

2. We are not coaching. We are the sole enforcers of the rules. We are not telling them what to do or not to do, but instead, telling them what is legal or not legal.

3. The game is not about us. Everyone involved wants to see the players play. If we can head off some fouls, everyone benefits.

Forksref

We view it this way: In a shotgun formation, there can be NO blocking below the waist because the ball is out of the free-blocking zone as soon as the QB touches it. If you can get a low block off in the time it takes for the ball to be snapped and before it reaches the QB, then you are the quickest lineman ever and we doubt that you are.

Jim S

Sent the Arkansaw interpretation to interpreters in three states. The kindest remark was that one of them wanted a bottle of whatever they'd been drinking in Arkansaw that night.

jumpmaster

Originally posted by Jim S
Sent the Arkansaw interpretation to interpreters in three states. The kindest remark was that one of them wanted a bottle of whatever they'd been drinking in Arkansaw that night.

LOL! I could probably arrange that. 😀

I'm curious, what states, what were their interps and why?

GarthB

Coincidentally, I had a similar play recently. Our local FED Clinician advised that for practical purposes, consider the ball out of the FBZ at the snap when A is in shotgun and the QB is more than 4 yards back.

I don't know if that's an "official" state guidline or not.