Need help with this one?

BillyMac

bob jenkins wrote
SITUATION 12: Team B has just scored to go up by three points with time running out in the fourth quarter. Player A1 inbounds the ball to A2 close to the sideline of Team B's bench. A2 releases a three-point try just prior to the horn sounding. Substitute B7 leaves the bench area, enters the court and blocks the shot. RULING: B7 shall be charged with two technical fouls and ejected. One technical foul is assessed for entering the court without permission and one for unsporting conduct. Any member of Team A may shoot the four free throws for the technical fouls. The results of these free throws will determine if the game is over or going into overtime. COMMENT: Two technical fouls must be assessed in this situation. Otherwise, the team committing the infraction would benefit from the act. (10-4-1; 10-4-2)

Thanks for going way back to 2005-06 bob jenkins.

We have to come up with some very technical and specific "work around" rule language to fairly take care of the situation.

That's how the FBI eventually got Al Capone, not for being a murderous gangster, bootlegger, racketeer, and mobster, but for income tax evasion.

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
... so we have to come up with some very technical and specific "work around" rule language to fairly take care of the situation.

Somehow we need to find an excuse to give the offended team at least three free throws.

It can't be just two free throws for one flagrant foul.

So throw the book at him and come up with any and all relevant rule infractions that "stick".

A guy visits his doctor and the doctor says, “Well, I’m sorry to say you’ve got six weeks to live.”

“I want a second opinion,” says the guy.

“You want a second opinion? OK,” says the doctor. “You’re ugly, too.”

BillyMac

Just noticed that the interpretation was not a foul, but a blocked shot.

Original situation was a foul, is it handled differently than a blocked shot?

What if the ball had gone in the basket?

Is the ball dead immediately, or does continuous motion apply here?

bucky

Wouldn't the only way to get 3 FTs for the shooter be if it was adjudicated as an intentional foul? If so, someone could easily argue that point....after all, the bench person clearly, and intentionally, performed the entire act.

Seems like the case play is the best route and the reasons could be used even if the player was fouled. Eject the offender, allow 4 FTs, and give them the ball too.

bwburke94

I have a technical foul (for entering the court without permission) and an intentional technical foul (for "contact that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position"). Because the intentional technical foul was in the act of shooting a three-point shot, it awards three free throws rather than the usual two.

Accordingly:

The substitute is charged with two technical fouls (one of them intentional) and is disqualified.
The offending team's head coach is charged with an indirect technical foul. In every state except my own, the offending team's head coach loses the privilege of the coaching box.
Two team fouls are added to the team's foul count.
The offended team receives five free throws (two for the technical foul and three for the intentional technical foul), and receives the ball at the division line for a throw-in.

Nevadaref

BillyMac wrote
Thanks for going way back to 2005-06 bob jenkins.

We have to come up with some very technical and specific "work around" rule language to fairly take care of the situation.

That's how the FBI eventually got Al Capone, not for being a murderous gangster, bootlegger, racketeer, and mobster, but for income tax evasion.

Hmmmmm… I wonder who came up with that situation years ago on this forum causing it to get forwarded to the NFHS committee for a ruling. Now who could it be?

Nevadaref

bwburke94 wrote
I have a technical foul (for entering the court without permission) and an intentional technical foul (for "contact that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position"). Because the intentional technical foul was in the act of shooting a three-point shot, it awards three free throws rather than the usual two.

Accordingly:

The substitute is charged with two technical fouls (one of them intentional) and is disqualified.

The offending team's head coach is charged with an indirect technical foul. In every state except my own, the offending team's head coach loses the privilege of the coaching box.

Two team fouls are added to the team's foul count.

The offended team receives five free throws (two for the technical foul and three for the intentional technical foul), and receives the ball at the division line for a throw-in.

Sorry, but the penalty for a technical foul is ALWAYS two free throws and never one or three. That’s sclearly spelled out in the penalty section for fouls in the rules book. Only a personal foul can result in three free throws. Hence, the quoted play ruling from about twenty years ago.

Nevadaref

BillyMac wrote
Can a player in the act of shooting be fouled by a non-player?

If yes, three free throws for that offended player (no rebounders).

A foul by a non-player is a technical foul per the definition in Rule 4. Hence, it must be two FTs, not 3. Therefore, the reason that two technical fouls must be assessed in such a situation in order to preserve basic fairness.

bwburke94

It's a technical foul, but it's also an intentional foul. This is the type of thing non-officials (myself included) can get confused on.

BillyMac

bwburke94 wrote
Two team fouls are added to the team's foul count.

Good point.

bob jenkins

bwburke94 wrote
It's a technical foul, but it's also an intentional foul. This is the type of thing non-officials (myself included) can get confused on.

It's an intentional TECHNICAL foul, not an intentional PERSONAL foul

Valley Man

Can I make this float?

Team Technical Foul (6 participating at a time)
Flagrant Intentional Foul (the ball is live/not dead)(contact that neutralizes obvious advantage)
Unsuccessful 3 point try

Shooter gets 3 shots (fouled in act of shooting)(flagrant/player disqualified)
Any eligible player 2 shots (team technical for 6 participating and discovered)
Ball nearest the spot of the intentional foul

We have to have adjudication that covers if the damn shot goes in!!

bob jenkins

Valley Man wrote
Can we piece together this for a ruling?

Team Technical Foul (6 participating at a time)
Flagrant Personal Foul (the ball is live/not dead)
Unsuccessful 3 point try

Shooter gets 3 shots (fouled in act of shooting)(flagrant/player disqualified)
Any eligible player 2 shots (team technical for 6 participating and discovered)
Ball at division line

You might as well add:

Entering without reporting
Baiting and taunting
Standing at the team bench
Leaving the confines when a fight might break out (as it might, here)
Wearing an illegal uniform (if part of the warm up is still on)
On the coach for allowing a player to leave the bench for an unauthorized reason

Or, we could just follow the interp. Two Ts, 4 FTs.

Valley Man

I understand the interp for blocking the shot.

There is no penalty for fouling a 3 point shooter if we apply that interp to this.

Ball is gone and you score it if it goes (so ball is not dead)

But no penalty if it doesnt?

bob jenkins

4 FTs for a 3-point shot seems like a "penalty" to me.

SNIPERBBB

Valley Man wrote
I understand the interp for blocking the shot.

There is no penalty for fouling a 3 point shooter if we apply that interp to this.

Ball is gone and you score it if it goes (so ball is not dead)

But no penalty if it doesnt?

Only way you can get to the "foul" is if the player was on court the whole time. You can't with a straight face say that a player you just watched come off the bench was an extra participant you didnt catch before resuming play at the last dead ball.

Offended team ought to be happy with the 4 FT's and the ball, assuming nobody retaliates against the player that came off the bench.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

bob jenkins wrote
situation 12: Team b has just scored to go up by three points with time running out in the fourth quarter. Player a1 inbounds the ball to a2 close to the sideline of team b's bench. A2 releases a three-point try just prior to the horn sounding. Substitute b7 leaves the bench area, enters the court and blocks the shot. Ruling: B7 shall be charged with two technical fouls and ejected. One technical foul is assessed for entering the court without permission and one for unsporting conduct. Any member of team a may shoot the four free throws for the technical fouls. The results of these free throws will determine if the game is over or going into overtime. Comment: Two technical fouls must be assessed in this situation. Otherwise, the team committing the infraction would benefit from the act. (10-4-1; 10-4-2)

👍

MTD, Sr.

Jqb12

Appreciate all the comments and help on this one

BillyMac

Under any circumstance (blocked shot, or foul), will the basket count if the ball ends up in the basket?

Continuous motion or dead ball immediately?

Yes, blocked shots can be deflected and still go in the basket. Not all blocked shots end up going out the exit door into the parking lot.

Valley Man

Don't see how you can count it if you are not awarding FT if it is missed.😃