Fun With Two Or Three Points ...

BillyMac

Maybe the important factor is if the ball is below (or above) the ring level when it touches (deflects off of) another player (offensive or defensive)?

4.41.4 - Situation B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

In 4.41.4 Situation B the ball is on the way down (try is short). In my silly scenario, the ball is on the way up.

Screener A2's head was definitely below the ring.

Grasping at straws here, straws to support any answer, either way.

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
Center A2, the tallest player in the league, sets a ball screen for point guard A1, the shortest player in the league. Both A1 and A2 are outside the three point arc. Because of the great screen, A1 finds himself undefended for a split second and attempts a three point try, however, after A1 releases the try, the ball (on the way up) strikes A2 in the head. The ball awkwardly ricochets high into the air, and subsequently passes through the basket. Two points, or three points? Is this like the alley-oop pass? And remember, the teammate, A2, is outside (not inside) the arc. Easy extra credit: Same thing, but horn to end period sounds after the ball ricochets off A2's head, but before the ball enters the basket?

If we're not counting anything if the horn sounds before the ball enters the basket, then is it possible that we shouldn't score three points (just two) on the defection (everybody behind the arc) that enters the basket before the horn sounds?

Or do they not have anything to do with each other?

BillyMac

With 0:04 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B’s frontcourt, standing behind the three point arc. B5 makes a back door cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential alley-oop dunk. The horn to end the period sounds before the ball enters and passes through the goal directly from B1’s pass and is not touched by B5.

What's the call? It's a pass, not a try, but do we treat it as a "Bootylicious" try?

ilyazhito

This is a 3-point try, even though it was not intended to be such. It is a ball thrown towards the goal with a chance of scoring in flight, so by rule it is a try, and since it was launched behind the 3-point line, and not touched by anyone, 3 points score.

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
With 0:04 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B’s frontcourt, standing behind the three point arc. B5 makes a back door cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential alley-oop dunk. The horn to end the period sounds before the ball enters and passes through the goal directly from B1’s pass and is not touched by B5.

ilyazhito wrote
This is a 3-point try ...

No it isn't. It's a pass (it says as such in the interpretation that I slightly modified). It's just treated as a try for the purpose of determining two or three points (not requiring judgment as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or a try).

This is a real rule language try. 4-41-2: A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal.

It doesn't say that a try is an attempt to pass the ball to a teammate. Attempting to throw for goal is not the same as attempting to pass the ball to a teammate.

I also believe (by purpose and intent) that this same 2001-02 clarification allows us to treat a last second ally-oop pass (as we've been discussing) the enters the basket untouched after the horn sounds to count, in this case, as three points.

But that is just my humble opinion.

ilyazhito

Can there be goaltending on this thrown ball? If I recall correctly, if this thrown ball was knocked down above the height of the basket, on its downward flight, and with a chance to score, then goaltending could be called. Since goaltending can only be called on tries, this alley-oop that did not connect would be considered a try by rule.

JRutledge

ilyazhito wrote
Can there be goaltending on this thrown ball? If I recall correctly, if this thrown ball was knocked down above the height of the basket, on its downward flight, and with a chance to score, then goaltending could be called. Since goaltending can only be called on tries, this alley-oop that did not connect would be considered a try by rule.

If you deem the throw ball is a "pass" then the answer is no. If you deem this is a shot like Dereck Whittenburg and it falls short and Lorenzo Charles puts it back in, you could I guess. But that play the shot was going to be short and it would not have been GT at all IMO.

Peace

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
... a shot like Dereck Whittenburg and it falls short and Lorenzo Charles puts it back in ...

Wow. Great memory. Almost forty years ago. I still remember watching it on television, maybe my first color television.

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/03/29/dereck-whittenburg-still-says-the-shot-was-a-pass/

BillyMac

ilyazhito wrote
... this alley-oop that did not connect would be considered a try by rule.

... by rule clarification.

BillyMac

ilyazhito wrote
Can there be goaltending on this thrown ball?

BillyMac wrote
With 0:04 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B’s frontcourt, standing behind the three point arc. B5 makes a back door cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential alley-oop dunk. The horn to end the period sounds before the ball enters and passes through the goal directly from B1’s pass and is not touched by B5.

In my opinion, the 2001-02 rule clarification suggests that one can count the (passed into the basket) basket after the horn sounds, count it as three points, and call goaltending if it occurs.

Just my personal opinion. My mind can be easily changed.

bob jenkins

ilyazhito wrote
Can there be goaltending on this thrown ball?

You can't have GT on a pass. You can have BI on a pass.

We have talked before about the discrepancy in the "alley oop" play -- if the horn goes off, no basket (because it's not a try); if it goes through the basket, 3-points (as if it were a try).

Camron Rust

ilyazhito wrote
This is a 3-point try, even though it was not intended to be such. It is a ball thrown towards the goal with a chance of scoring in flight, so by rule it is a try, and since it was launched behind the 3-point line, and not touched by anyone, 3 points score.

No, by rule this is not a try. A try has a specific definition and this is not it. It does count for 3 points but not because the rules say it is a try.

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
In my opinion, the 2001-02 rule clarification suggests that one can count the (passed into the basket) basket after the horn sounds, count it as three points, and call goaltending if it occurs. Just my personal opinion. My mind can be easily changed.

bob jenkins wrote
We have talked before about the discrepancy in the "alley oop" play -- if the horn goes off, no basket (because it's not a try); if it goes through the basket, 3-points (as if it were a try).

Since we should always listen to bob, with the exception that I was wrong in my initial commentary on the IAABO video (two, not three, points off accidental defensive deflection), I now have no closure (that I thought I had) on alley-oop "horns" and alley-oop "goaltending"; as well as an unanswered question regarding an offensive deflection with everybody behind the arc.

ilyazhito

Camron Rust wrote
No, by rule this is not a try. A try has a specific definition and this is not it. It does count for 3 points but not because the rules say it is a try.

Why does it count for three points then, if it is not a try? It is an attempt to score, from behind the 3 point line.

Raymond

ilyazhito wrote
Why does it count for three points then, if it is not a try? It is an attempt to score, from behind the 3 point line.

As Camron stated, a try has a specific definition. When the defense shoots into the wrong basket, it is not a try by definition, but it still counts as 2 points.

If a player throws a baseball pass and is fouled, the ball is dead immediately and if it goes through the basket it does not count as a goal. If a player attempts a try and is fouled, the ball is not dead, and if it goes through the basket it counts as a goal.

Camron Rust

ilyazhito wrote
Why does it count for three points then, if it is not a try? It is an attempt to score, from behind the 3 point line.

Why? Because the rule says so. It does not say it is a try. It just says it counts as 3 points whether it was an attempt to score (a try) or not an attempt to score. If they wanted to be be a try, the rule would have defined it as such.

ilyazhito

The rules are stupid, at least in this scenario.

JRutledge

ilyazhito wrote
The rules are stupid, at least in this scenario.

Well, are they? We do need to define a try or we would have a lot of contact being awarded shots that were never by definition a try. But also this is such a rare scenario anyway, it really matters little. I have never seen the play like this in the OP in one of my games. And other than this video not sure I have ever seen this before either. Not something we should be that worried about.

Peace

Valley Man

Had this happen a few years ago. Team A is running sideline break and A1 pitches it ahead to A2 (all outside the 3 pt line). B2 deflects the pass into A's basket. They raised hell we only called it a 2.

Kansas Ref

Valley Man wrote
Had this happen a few years ago. Team A is running sideline break and A1 pitches it ahead to A2 (all outside the 3 pt line). B2 deflects the pass into A's basket. They raised hell we only called it a 2.

*I guess in an "alternate universe" they might've construed A1's pitch pass--as a "try for goal"; and the "tip" of said pass when ball was hit by B2 to be construed as a "partially blocked shot"--which ultimately went thru the hoop, ergo 3 points awarded?

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