When to start 10 second count?

BillyMac

Raymond wrote
They seem to go out of their way to emphasize that the ball crossing the division line having no affect a 10-second count starting.

For our high school only members that see this college interpretation, I don't like the phrase "crossing the division line".

The ball crossing the plane of the division line (in the air) is not only not relevant to the college ten second count, it's also not relevant to the application of the high school ten second count, the ball must touch someone in the backcourt, or the floor in the backcourt, to begin the high school ten second count in the situation that we've been discussing, not simply cross the plane of the division line in the air.

Of course, all Forum members are what'cha call experts, and we would never think that.

bob jenkins

Raymond wrote
They seem to go out of their way to emphasize that the ball crossing the division line having no affect a 10-second count starting. I don't think that's an argument anybody has ever tried to make. Why nothing on the more pertinent part of this conversation, the ball attaining BC status while in continuous TC? We all know the 10-second count terminates once the ball gains FC status, regardless of PC. The relevant variable to this conversation should be the reverse--should a 10-second count start when the ball attains BC status while in continuous TC.

The rule makes it clear (at least to me). It details when, always, the count starts -- in the OP (and in all instances except a jump ball or a rebound), it's when the ball is touched.

Raymond

BillyMac wrote
For our high school only members that see this college interpretation, I don't like the phrase "crossing the division line".

The ball crossing the plane of the division line (in the air) is not only not relevant to the college ten second count, it's also not relevant to the application of the high school ten second count, the ball must touch someone in the backcourt, or the floor in the backcourt, to begin the high school ten second count in the situation that we've been discussing, not simply cross the plane of the division line in the air.
....

That's exactly my point to Bob. That's a worthless test question because it discusses something no one ever gets confused about. The confusion, understandably, is a ball that gains BC status while in continuous TC after previously being in the FC. As far as I can tell in that test question, the ball never touched the floor in the backcourt, thus duh, it didn't gain BC status until the A2 caught the ball.

bob jenkins

Raymond wrote
That's exactly my point to Bob. That's a worthless test question because it discusses something no one ever gets confused about. The confusion, understandably, is a ball that gains BC status while in continuous TC after previously being in the FC. As far as I can tell in that test question, the ball never touched the floor in the backcourt, thus duh, it didn't gain BC status until the A2 caught the ball.

It's not a test question, it's an answer by the secretary rules-editor to a question submitted to him.

My interp is that the ball hitting the floor before A gets to it is implied (but I agree it could be stated). I don't think I've ever seen a ball deflected to the back court that went more than a couple of feet before hitting the floor (or being caught).

Jqb12

BillyMac wrote
It wasn't as bad as that:

9:09 Post 1 Jqb12 Question
10:23 Post 5 DrKildare Wrong Answer
10:26 Post 6 Nevadaref Answer Questioned
10:47 Post 9 BigCat Right Answer
11:09 Post 13 Nevadaref Answer Confirmed

JRutledge has a good point, ten minutes is a lot shorter than two hours.

Not sure if I'm impressed with you spending the time on the computer to track the history, or saddened by it.

BillyMac

Jqb12 wrote
Not sure if I'm impressed with you spending the time on the computer to track the history, or saddened by it.

I asked Alexa to do it for me. After that, she made my dinner and did my laundry.

Jqb12

BillyMac wrote
I asked Alexa to do it for me. After that, she made my dinner and did my laundry.

Very cool.......and mighty efficient!

thumpferee

SC Official wrote
So, to clarify...

NFHS: Count begins when team control in the backcourt begins. Following a throw-in, that means the count begins once player control is established in the backcourt (true team control). When the ball is deflected by the defense into the backcourt but is still in the offense's control, the count begins as soon as the ball gains backcourt status.

NCAA-M/W: Count begins when the ball is touched in the backcourt by the team in control. The count begins when the throw-in ends when touched in the backcourt. When there is no team control, the count begins when player control in the backcourt begins.

Correct?

I'm looking for clarification on this too!:confused:

For NFHS, I would say on a throw-in, the 10 second could would not start until player control was established in the BC. Correct?

BillyMac

thumpferee wrote
For NFHS, I would say on a throw-in, the 10 second could would not start until player control was established in the BC.

Always listen to SC Official. Wait ... I'm being told ... bob who?

SC Official wrote
NFHS: Count begins when team control in the backcourt begins. Following a throw-in, that means the count begins once player control is established in the backcourt. When the ball is deflected by the defense into the backcourt but is still in the offense's control, the count begins as soon as the ball gains backcourt status.

Sit back and enjoy some 1960's bubblegum pop:

https://youtu.be/_rTmaU3lvn4

bucky

Like a whirlpool, it never ends.

A Pennsylvania Coach

Camron Rust wrote
Your last point is the reason....there is only team control on a throwin for fouls. Real and full team control only begins when an inbounds player gains control.

I know this is correct, but where is the rule on team control on a throw-in only for fouls?

bob jenkins

A Pennsylvania Coach wrote
I know this is correct, but where is the rule on team control on a throw-in only for fouls?

Good question, but you (know you are) asking the wrong person.

It's in the various POEs. FED could change that. No one here can.

BillyMac

A Pennsylvania Coach wrote
... where is the rule on team control on a throw-in only for fouls?

That's the $64,000.00 question.

Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18
2. Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.

Now, how are those without access to a 2017-18 rulebook supposed to know this?

By the oral tradition of young basketball officials sitting around a campfire listening to stories about old Points of Emphasis from old, grizzled, veteran officials?

That's Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on the left, back when he had a full head of hair.

thumpferee

A Pennsylvania Coach wrote
I know this is correct, but where is the rule on team control on a throw-in only for fouls?

PIAA 2017-2018 POE

Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.
With specific regard to the backcourt violation; a team may not be the last to touch a live ball in the front court and then be the first to touch a live ball in the backcourt, provided that team has establish player control/team control on the playing court (either in the backcourt or frontcourt). BY RULE EXCEPTION, during a throw-in a team may leave the front court, establish player control/team control while airborne and land in the backcourt. This is a legal play and ONLY applies to the first player of the offense who touches the ball PRIOR to the end of the throw-in.

BillyMac

thumpferee wrote
2017-2018 POE Team control, throw-in.

2011-12 BASKETBALL RULES CHANGES
Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered.

bucky

BillyMac wrote
2011-12 BASKETBALL RULES CHANGES
Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered.

"Primarily" not "solely" so what else does it affect?

Camron Rust

bucky wrote
"Primarily" not "solely" so what else does it affect?

The flow of questions on discussion forums.

ilyazhito

Why not change the NFHS 10-second rule to match NCAA? Both sets of rules both start team control on the throw-in, so why not start the 10-second count on team control inbounds, rather than player control? This would render this entire discussion thread moot, as well as ease the inevitable transition to a high school shot clock.

Camron Rust

ilyazhito wrote
Why not change the NFHS 10-second rule to match NCAA? Both sets of rules both start team control on the throw-in, so why not start the 10-second count on team control inbounds, rather than player control? This would render this entire discussion thread moot, as well as ease the inevitable transition to a high school shot clock.

Not correct. Team control in NFHS, for all but one purpose, starts with player control inbounds....the same time as the 10 count starts. College used to be the same. They changed to make the shot clock administration easier.

ilyazhito

DC uses college rules for shot clock, 10 seconds, and closely guarded counts. If NFHS has team control on throw-ins for fouls and timeouts, it wouldn't be a stretch to recognize TC on throw-ins for other purposes (10-second count) as well. Sure, the rule might require re-writing, but it would not have a situation where there both is and isn't team control (TC on throw-in, lost because ball is inbounds, then re-gained by same team by acquiring player control; where TC is not normally lost on loose balls (including passes), and would thus be simpler to administer. If the other team controls the ball after the backcourt throw-in, 10-second count ends. Same team controls, 10-second count continues. The count could be administered visibly, invisibly with the game clock, or invisibly with the shot clock (for states where one exists, or when all states go shot clock).

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