Halftime Questions

harmbu

Is there any reason why an official would ask the official score keeper for foul counts on various players at halftime of a game. It would seem to me that this is not something an official would need or want to know at this point in the game.

ilyazhito

Maybe the official might want to figure out who the problem players are, based on foul trouble. I don't know what other explanation could be there.

Rich

harmbu wrote
Is there any reason why an official would ask the official score keeper for foul counts on various players at halftime of a game. It would seem to me that this is not something an official would need or want to know at this point in the game.

Are you asking as the scorer?

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harmbu

I am asking as the Athletic Director who hired the official score keeper. She came to me after the game asking why an official would ask.

I am not trying to stir anything up. I just wanted to know if this is a common practice that I need fo be aware of.

BillyMac

We're all thinking it, and dancing around the topic, so I might as well say it out loud.

Some officials want to make sure that the star players on both teams don't foul out on "gray area" fouls near the end of the game, they want to be 100% sure that a star player's fifth foul is a "real" fifth foul.

It's a dirty little secret among some officials. Now if any Forum member tells anybody else, they'll have to kill them.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

We all have officiated with officials who want to have that type of information. I do not want it and if a partner gave me that information I would let it go through one ear out the other. WAIT!! That is not what I meant to say. I would ignore the information. Officiate the game the way one would always officiate the game and let the chips fall where they may.

MTD, Sr.

Rich

I want to know who has 4 fouls, yes. I don't want to call any marginal fouls, but I want to be aware of who has 4. The other team, if smart, will try to get a fifth and for me it works both ways -- don't miss an actual foul, but don't put one on that player if it isn't deserved.

I also want to know if there are any GFUs and sometimes the foul list can help with that discussion at halftime.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Rich wrote
I want to know who has 4 fouls, yes. I don't want to call any marginal fouls, but I want to be aware of who has 4. The other team, if smart, will try to get a fifth and for me it works both ways -- don't miss an actual foul, but don't put one on that player if it isn't deserved.

I also want to know if there are any GFUs and sometimes the foul list can help with that discussion at halftime.

Rich:

I respectfully disagree. Why? If it is a foul in the first thirty seconds of the game then it is a foul in the last thirty seconds of the game.

MTD, Sr.

Rich

It goes without saying that I'd rather not call any marginal fouls.

But I especially don't want to call a fourth or fifth on anyone, especially an impact player who will not either have to play differently or will be out of the game if it's not an obvious, necessary foul.

I'd just rather know. A lot of top officials I've spoken with and have heard speak agree with me. Others don't. I'm just telling you where I sit on this.

Raymond

harmbu wrote
I am asking as the Athletic Director who hired the official score keeper. She came to me after the game asking why an official would ask.

I am not trying to stir anything up. I just wanted to know if this is a common practice that I need fo be aware of.

It's a good practice for an official to be aware of foul trouble, but not to explicitly ask. Later in games I will sometimes have the 2 scorers confirm they have the same players with 3 or more fouls.

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BillyMac

Rich wrote
... especially an impact player.

Special players getting special treatment isn't just an NBA concept.

That's not my bag, it doesn't seem like the intent and purpose of the rules, but I understand how it accepted by many others.

Rich

BillyMac wrote
Special players getting special treatment isn't just an NBA concept.

That's not my bag, it doesn't seem like the intent and purpose of the rules, but I understand how it accepted by many others.

It's not special treatment, it's acknowledgement that a shitty call on an impact player is a much bigger deal than on someone who pops in to give a guy a 2 minute blow in the second quarter.

I want to know who has 3 at all times. Impact player, non-impact player, anyone. I won't hesitate to call those fouls when they're there.

BillyMac

Rich wrote
... a shitty call on an impact player is a much bigger deal than on someone who pops in to give a guy a 2 minute blow in the second quarter.

It most certainly is, you'll get no argument from me.

Rich wrote
I won't hesitate to call those fouls when they're there.

And neither would I. Throughout the game, in regard to calling fouls, I try to be consistent with my partner, consistent with what has already been called in the game, consistent with my local board's philosophy on advantage/disadvantage, freedom of movement, late game strategic fouls, etc., and I try to maintain that consistency for thirty-two minutes.

just another ref

Rich wrote
It's not special treatment, it's acknowledgement that a shitty call on an impact player is a much bigger deal than on someone who pops in to give a guy a 2 minute blow in the second quarter.

Is it inconceivable that consciously trying to avoid a "shitty call" in this situation could lead to a shitty no call?

Raymond

just another ref wrote
Is it inconceivable that consciously trying to avoid a "shitty call" in this situation could lead to a shitty no call?

Leads to increased concentration and certainty on my part.

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JRutledge

harmbu wrote
I am asking as the Athletic Director who hired the official score keeper. She came to me after the game asking why an official would ask.

I am not trying to stir anything up. I just wanted to know if this is a common practice that I need fo be aware of.

It might not be common practice, but I will and have asked questions about what is a stat or two that might explain the first half or give us some idea as to what might happen in the second half. There might be a reason they are asking because the coach might have made a big deal out of it. So they want to know so they are aware of what the coach is talking about. Honestly, if I ask those questions, I do not care why others might not care. I am asking for myself.

A few weeks ago I asked in a college game for what one of the teams shot in the first half. I was opposite the table and the stat guy was right next to me, so I asked him what was the percentage. It helped me figure out that that was not going to continue and we would have a much closer game in the second half. The team that shot the high percentage ended up losing. No one was in foul trouble, but I might have asked if it was a factor in the game. Any information a crew can have can help them tell figure out what is happening or what might happen.

Peace

just another ref

Raymond wrote
Leads to increased concentration and certainty on my part.

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I'll buy that. But for me I think that means I have a tendency to blow less whistles on anyone late in a close game, not just impact players. ("LET THE PLAYERS DECIDE THE GAME!!") Put me in the camp of never asking who has three or four fouls, but quite often we know anyway, whether we like it or not.

bob jenkins

I just like to know so we can properly administer the fifth foul instead of having the table buzz us back. Plus we can sometimes figure out the offense and better judge any contact if we know who they might be "attacking."

UNIgiantslayers

A Final Four official said this to me at camp this year and it resonated with me because I used to hate when guys would mention that:
If you get a cheap 3rd foul in the first half or a cheap 4th/5th in the second half on the best player on that team, rather than having the best player on the floor, you’ve now got the 6th best player on the floor. Does that improve the flow and quality of the basketball? That has reshaped my philosophy, and while I will go get it if it’s there, if it’s marginal or 50/50 as to whether it’s a foul or who the foul is on, I’m going to choose wisely in an effort to preserve the quality of basketball being played.

billyu2

UNIgiantslayers wrote
A Final Four official said this to me at camp this year and it resonated with me because I used to hate when guys would mention that:
If you get a cheap 3rd foul in the first half or a cheap 4th/5th in the second half on the best player on that team, rather than having the best player on the floor, you’ve now got the 6th best player on the floor. Does that improve the flow and quality of the basketball? That has reshaped my philosophy, and while I will go get it if it’s there, if it’s marginal or 50/50 as to whether it’s a foul or who the foul is on, I’m going to choose wisely in an effort to preserve the quality of basketball being played.

Wow! Really? I find that rather absurd. The 6th best player is going to cause a big drop off in the flow and quality of the game? Virtually every game has stretches where play can get sloppy even with the best 5 players from each team in the game. Players 10-15 might certainly affect the flow and quality (but at that point the game has likely been decided) but the 6th player? I can't ever think of a time where I was even remotely concerned about the 6th player affecting the flow and quality of a game. I think sometimes we believe big-time officials are giving us nuggets when it's really only fools gold.