NCAA rules clinic

teebob21

IRISHMAFIA wrote
I know you all think I'm a little soft on my opinions about rule changes, 🙂 but this one is a load of shit. It improves absolutely nothing. If anything, it may add confusion to the game. IMO, it is a weak change with no consideration given to order of the game, rules and those tasked to officiate it.

I would love to know what influenced such a change.

Mike, even having met you for a whopping 5 minutes in person, I love your unfiltered opinions, and this is a good one (opinion). This "weak change" fixes the old rule of no "projected subs" where a 'projected' sub is immediate. As I understand it, subs are "effective" as soon as reported. No sooner, no later. As far as I am concerned, this is a positive rule change.

I reserve the right to edit this post if I am wrong. :}

youngump

teebob21 wrote
Mike, even having met you for a whopping 5 minutes in person, I love your unfiltered opinions, and this is a good one (opinion). This "weak change" fixes the old rule of no "projected subs" where a 'projected' sub is immediate. As I understand it, subs are "effective" as soon as reported. No sooner, no later. As far as I am concerned, this is a positive rule change.

I reserve the right to edit this post if I am wrong. :}

It seems poorly written (as evidenced by the OP) but the rule just brings NCAA in line with every other softball (and baseball) code, no?

jmkupka

The people with whom I'm debating are not even concerning themselves with the re-entry yet... just the original substitution, which they think can be made 3,4,5 batting cycles into the future...

Strangely enough, I believe 1 small change (or even an addition) in the rationale explanation would clarify things immensely:

Projected substitutions, i.e., substitutions reported if the player to be substituted for continues to participate after the change is reported (running, batting, playing defense), will continue not to be allowed.

IRISHMAFIA

Crabby_Bob wrote
Coach reports Flex batting for DP (who is only playing offense). At the end of the half-inning, the coach wants to reenter the DP. That was a projected substitution under the old rule. (Still is in the sense that it may be several innings before the DP's spot comes to bat again.) The coach was to be told to reenter the DP when the DP was due to bat. Coaches being coaches, they would forget and potentially be hit with an unreported substitute violation.

That and if substitutes on offense are taken one at a time, it slows the game down.

I disagree that it would be a projected substitute. I've been dealing with attempted projected substitutes for a quarter of a entry and IMO that is a misinterpretation. While it may not be a smart move by the coach, there is no requirement for a player being entered in the batting order to make an immediate appearance as a batter. Then again, the BS I've seen thrown around NFHS recently, I have often wondered how many actually know what a projected sub is.

IRISHMAFIA

youngump wrote
It seems poorly written (as evidenced by the OP) but the rule just brings NCAA in line with every other softball (and baseball) code, no?

No. Well, not that way it is coming across.

It isn't hard. For that matter, it has been harder trying to create scenarios that try to redefine a projected sub in order to fix something that wasn't broken

Dakota

Criminetly! This is not hard.

Can the change be entered on the umpire's lineup card when the coach announces the change?
Yes... not a projected sub.
No... a projected sub.

Is this the official interpretation of the NCAA? BFOM; I don't officiate NCAA.

Have the rules writers and interpreters and clinicians screwed it up?
Yes.

Crabby_Bob

IRISHMAFIA wrote
I disagree that it would be a projected substitute. I've been dealing with attempted projected substitutes for a quarter of a entry and IMO that is a misinterpretation. While it may not be a smart move by the coach, there is no requirement for a player being entered in the batting order to make an immediate appearance as a batter. Then again, the BS I've seen thrown around NFHS recently, I have often wondered how many actually know what a projected sub is.

I don't disagree at all [with you]. One can only work with the interpretations handed down.

teebob21

IRISHMAFIA wrote
(snip) there is no requirement for a player being entered in the batting order to make an immediate appearance as a batter

Last year's NCAA ruleset/interpretations did require this. For example, if the 4-5-6 batters were due up in the inning, Coach could not sub for B5 until her turn to bat. It was not intuitive, slowed the game, and complicated things with respect to DP/Flex. IMO, they fixed it, which is why I said earlier that I think this is a positive rule change.

jmkupka

However, Teebob, if the Defense coach wanted to pull his shortstop when she tanked a play, even if she's due to bat 5th in the upcoming at-bat, we still accepted that change. Go figure.

youngump

jmkupka wrote
However, Teebob, if the Defense coach wanted to pull his shortstop when she tanked a play, even if she's due to bat 5th in the upcoming at-bat, we still accepted that change. Go figure.

I found this post confusing. I'm not sure in what way it's a however. Let me restate my understanding.

Play: F6 commits a throwing error which results in a run scoring. The third out is recorded later in the same play.
NCAA last year: F6 cannot be replaced until she is due to bat.
NCAA this year and every other 4 base code: F6 can be replaced now even though she won't be up to bat until 5th in the inning.

Is that how we all understand it?

IRISHMAFIA

teebob21 wrote
Last year's NCAA ruleset/interpretations did require this. For example, if the 4-5-6 batters were due up in the inning, Coach could not sub for B5 until her turn to bat. It was not intuitive, slowed the game, and complicated things with respect to DP/Flex. IMO, they fixed it, which is why I said earlier that I think this is a positive rule change.

IMO, this is a result of a complete misunderstanding of alleged softball people of the definition of a projected substitute.

It is easier than understanding the effect of an infield fly. I believe there is too much emphasis placed on a player's defensive position or batting order slot. Making a change is not that difficult and when you make it, the change is effective immediately. Not next inning, not whenever the coaches ask it to be or any other time.

Again, it is not hard to understand. It doesn't delay the game or affect the flow. At least it hasn't for over 80 years of softball.

Going in any other direction can only set up the umpire and coach for possible failure at some point in the game.

Tru_in_Blu

youngump wrote
I found this post confusing. I'm not sure in what way it's a however. Let me restate my understanding.

Play: F6 commits a throwing error which results in a run scoring. The third out is recorded later in the same play.
NCAA last year: F6 cannot be replaced until she is due to bat.
NCAA this year and every other 4 base code: F6 can be replaced now even though she won't be up to bat until 5th in the inning.

Is that how we all understand it?

I don't do NCAA, so haven't followed this thread that closely. But the comment about "F6 cannot be replaced until she is due to bat" simply makes no sense at all. That eliminates ANY defensive substitutions.

What would happen if a defensive player were injured? Or a coach wanted to make a multiple position swap by moving the current pitcher to another defensive position, removing the player at that position, and entering a new pitcher?

I don't mean to further confuse the issue, but apparently this thread doesn't need my help to do that. 🙄

Crabby_Bob

Tru_in_Blu wrote
I don't do NCAA, so haven't followed this thread that closely. But the comment about "F6 cannot be replaced until she is due to bat" simply makes no sense at all. That eliminates ANY defensive substitutions.

What would happen if a defensive player were injured? Or a coach wanted to make a multiple position swap by moving the current pitcher to another defensive position, removing the player at that position, and entering a new pitcher?

I don't mean to further confuse the issue, but apparently this thread doesn't need my help to do that. :rolleyes:

Old Rule:
8.5.1.1 Any player may be substituted for at any time when the ball is dead as long as she immediately participates in the game.

If F6 does not come to bat in the next half-inning, the substitution can take place when her team takes the field on defense.

Tru_in_Blu

Crabby_Bob wrote
Old Rule:
8.5.1.1 Any player may be substituted for at any time when the ball is dead as long as she immediately participates in the game.

If F6 does not come to bat in the next half-inning, the substitution can take place when her team takes the field on defense.

That didn't help.

A defensive substitute is immediately participating in the game. The change can come in the middle of a half inning.

Not sure what you mean by "if F6 does not come to bat ..." If F6 is scheduled to bat 7th next half-inning, we don't know if she will come to bat in the next half-inning or not.

CecilOne

Making a change is not that difficult and when you make it, the change is effective immediately.

Making a change is not that difficult and when you make it, the change is effective immediately.

🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄

jmkupka

the comment about "immediately participating in the game" is what I think most complicates what is an incredibly simple rule.

A player is "participating in a the game" by just sitting on the bench, waiting for her at-bat, which could be as many as 8 batters away.

For a DP, she is "participating in the game" while she sits on the bench as her team is getting beat up on defense for a 1/2 hour, and her at-bat is up to 8 batters away.

If she's in the batting lineup, she's "participating in the game". Period.

youngump

Tru_in_Blu wrote
That didn't help.

A defensive substitute is immediately participating in the game. The change can come in the middle of a half inning.

Not sure what you mean by "if F6 does not come to bat ..." If F6 is scheduled to bat 7th next half-inning, we don't know if she will come to bat in the next half-inning or not.

Notice in my play, the third out was recorded on the play. As such, in the old NCAA rule, F6 could not be removed until due up to bat or when she was returning to defense. In other words, the NCAA messed up the concept of a substitution by claiming that players waiting to bat but not actually at bat were not participating in the game. This year they fixed it and it works like every other code. But they did it in a way that is still leaving some people messed up on the subject.
(Or my understanding of what's up is wrong.)

IRISHMAFIA

If a player is in the batting order, the player is a game participant

Dakota

IRISHMAFIA wrote
If a player is in the batting order, the player is a game participant

Exactly!

youngump

Dakota wrote
Exactly!

I agree. What I can't tell is if you're trying to disagree with something I said or just make a point about how utterly ridiculous the previous NCAA interpretation was.

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