Illegal Pitches and when's enough?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Unfortunately I have seen 2 or 3 cases of opposing coaches going nuts over it. "Our players aren't learning anything if you give them free outs".

"And what do you want me to do, Coach? Not call the outs when the rule clearly says I must? Your beef is with the opposing coach, not me!"

Seriously, if a coach gets that upset and vocal about it, then I'm sure the opposing coach would be more than happy to stop and keep running up the score.

[SE Minnestoa Re]

I was working the high school state tournament a couple of years ago and had two big school teams. I was working first base and noticed the first pitcher being illegal on every warmup pitch. First pitch of the game--illegal. Coach comes bounding out of the dugout whining that it is the first time she has been called all year.

Never was illegal the rest of the game. Afterwards, a metro umpire said that this happens every game. She will throw illegal until caught and then fix it immediately.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

Worked an ASA tournament this weekend. 12U A level. Pretty good ball all weekend with a few exceptions.

Had one young lady pitching and she was doing the little "hop" off the pitcher's plate "every" pitch instead of toe down and dragging. I know it's and IP............but..............coach was told two or three times that it was illegal and he agreed but said she's young and has to work through it, he was going to leave her in the game. Nonsense but that's what he said.

Opposing coach wants it called. It's called a few times and results in a couple of runs being scored.......but the pitching technique never changed. Didn't look like she even tried to change it..........or maybe just couldn't. I don't know.

My partner and I just simply came to the conclusion that we just couldn't call it every pitch. The game would turn into a fiasco fans having fits about letting the girls play, us looking like complete idiots for calling the pitches when no real advantage was being gained.

We simply lived with it, the other team stopped griping when we asked him if he wanted it called every pitch and the game continued on. The illegal pitcher lost the game............but, what would you guys have done? I'm curious.

Thanks

I will submit the argument that there was an advantage being gained, otherwise she would be pitching legally. And while I am not a fan of the women's/girl's version of the pitching rule in some areas, as an umpire I have to call the IP whenever I see it.

[Linknblue]

Thanks guys. I've got a consensus. I see the point of calling "all" illegal pitches. I called them, and I was PU, so didn't see everyone cuz of concentration on other things but I got two runs calling illegals and nothing changed.........Gawd, that's ugly when you know you're right and everyone is screaming and yelling.

I'll just have to "ball up" and call it next time and live with the sh...storm I guess. Then I'll come back and post what happened.

Thanks

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

Thanks guys. I've got a consensus. I see the point of calling "all" illegal pitches. I called them, and I was PU, so didn't see everyone cuz of concentration on other things but...

Whoa Nellie, hang on. This young lady was leaping during her pitches, and as PU you were calling them? In the OP, you said you had a partner. Why were you and not him making those calls? IPs involving the feet are the BU's responsibility.

[Linknblue]

Cuz he refused to call every pitch IP. He was the one that asked the OC if that was what he wanted, every pitch to be called. OC kinda shut up but..........that's what I was into.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Call it when you see it, absolutely. Can it get ridiculously out of control? The calls, NO; but the game can be. When it does get ridiculous to the point of the game taking three hours and is lopsided, you talk to the OC and negotiate the situation.

When they understand the 20 run lead may go for naught if the game doesn't reach the minimum number of innings, they may get over the point that you intend to finish the game and if that means overlooking some IPs, so be it.

[Manny A]

Frankly, I wouldn't think too highly of a coach who would allow his/her pitcher to stay out there and have IP after IP after IP called to the point that the game gets that ridiculous. Any coach worth his/her salt would remove the pitcher after a few walks and a couple of runs, and not let the pitcher suffer all of the embarrassment and indignity that comes with an IP-induced blow out.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Frankly, I wouldn't think too highly of a coach who would allow his/her pitcher to stay out there and have IP after IP after IP called to the point that the game gets that ridiculous. Any coach worth his/her salt would remove the pitcher after a few walks and a couple of runs, and not let the pitcher suffer all of the embarrassment and indignity that comes with an IP-induced blow out.

Had a coach a couple of years ago who refused to take the pitcher out, who just happened to be his daughter. She was leaping and not even attempting to keep the foot down even after repeatedly telling both her and her dad the pivot foot had to drag away. He kept trying to argue it didnt and at one point told me he wasnt going to allow me to call illegal pitches all day. He was going to go get the TD and the UIC and talk to them. I told him to go right ahead and get them. He never did pull her, and worst part was I was told he came back the next morning and put her right back in for the next game and was throwing a fit again.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Had a coach a couple of years ago who refused to take the pitcher out, who just happened to be his daughter. She was leaping and not even attempting to keep the foot down even after repeatedly telling both her and her dad the pivot foot had to drag away. He kept trying to argue it didnt and at one point told me he wasnt going to allow me to call illegal pitches all day. He was going to go get the TD and the UIC and talk to them. I told him to go right ahead and get them. He never did pull her, and worst part was I was told he came back the next morning and put her right back in for the next game and was throwing a fit again.

Yup, like I said, I wouldn't think too highly of this pinhead. And I wouldn't be surprised if most--if not all--of the parents on his team, as well as the opposing coaches and fans, and umpires felt the same way.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Frankly, I wouldn't think too highly of a coach who would allow his/her pitcher to stay out there and have IP after IP after IP called to the point that the game gets that ridiculous. Any coach worth his/her salt would remove the pitcher after a few walks and a couple of runs, and not let the pitcher suffer all of the embarrassment and indignity that comes with an IP-induced blow out.

Don't know. Didn't Candrea do that a few years ago with Kenzie Fowler?

She was a serious leaper and Candrea never stated she wasn't illegal, but the umpire's shouldn't have been so adamant about calling it. And, of course, after the game Fowler stated, on air through the tears, that she hadn't been called illegal before (even though the NCAA stats page showed that she had).

The first question in my mind is how does a player reach that level and not get corrected by a staff which was supposedly world-class? Second question, did they really care? I think Candrea believed his offense could overcome the free passes and they often did.

[CecilOne]

It does not matter if an IP is an advantage or disadvantage.
It does not matter if the pitcher really has not been called for illegal pitches before.
Pitches can be illegal, not the pitcher.
It does not matter if the coach complains.
It does not matter what we think about the coach.
It does not matter if the spectators complain or harass the umpires (might hurt recruiting though).
It does not matter if your partner agrees.
he call does not "give" the other team balls, bases or runs; the infraction does.

Lower levels or lower ages; I don't call it the first time, but stop the game, tell the coach what was illegal and let the coach correct or ignore it.
Ignoring it gets the next time called.

In spite of my comments, it is still a conundrum for me in a situation where the coach determines my rating.

A highlight for me is seeing a pitcher throw a legal warmup.

[robbie]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

A highlight for me is seeing a pitcher throw a legal warmup.

AMEN!!
Although as we all know, not a 100% indicator of legal when it counts - But a good start!!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

MTD, Jr. (aka MTDv2.0) and I umpired in a girls' (10U, 12U, and 14U) FP tournament this past weekend (Saturday and Sunday only). Saturday's games were rained out so the entire tournament was played on Sunday. The 14Us played NFHS Softball Rules but the 10Us and 12Us played Little League Softball Rules; in other words, this was not an ASA or USSSA sanctioned tournament, but I digress. It was a long day which started at 08:00am; there was a shortage of umpires and all of the games except the championship games were single umpire games. Mark and I umpired five games as solo umpires and then umpired the 14U championship game at the end of the day.

Buy my third game of the day was a 10U game and I did not see the starting pitcher (RHP) for the Home Team take her warm up pitches before the start of the game because I was in the dressing room readjusting my knee brace. The H starting pitcher could have passed as a 13 year old (her coach later confirmed that she would be playing 12U next year).

LL Softball Rule 8.01-(h) states: "In the act of delivering the ball, the pitcher may take one step with the non-pivot foot simultaneously with the release of the ball. The step must be forward and toward the batter within or partially within the 24 inch length of the pitcher's plate."

Starting with her very first pitch, she stepped to her left at a 45 degree angle from the straight line from HP to 2B, and it landed at least 6 inches to the left of the 24 inch length of the pitcher's plate. I did not call IPs on her first 4 pitches because they were balls and the Visitors' HC never complained. But when continued to pitch that way to the second batter I stopped the game and asked her HC to join me in the circle. I explained the situation to the HC and he explained it to his pitcher. And yet she still couldn't pitch legally. She pitched that way for 2-1/2 innings and then her took her out. I never called an IP and the Visitor's never complained even though they lost the game.

I told the pitcher's HC that if she was going to play ASA as a 12U she needed to correct it because in the tournaments in which MTD, Jr., and I umpire, the umpires will call IPs from her very first pitch and it will be called until she corrects it or she is removed from the F1 position. He gave me that blank look stare as if to say, what I am supposed to do?

This was a season ending tournament and not a very big one. It was going to be and was a long hot day. This was a situation where one just had to bite the bullet and not get overly officious. Fortunately, Mark, Jr., and I did not see this team the rest of the day.

MTD, Sr.

[MD Longhorn]

Mark - I would ask, in your area --- is this a late-season tourney, or a pre-season one (could be either given the timing). IOW, were these Spring teams finishing up, or Fall teams just getting going?

At 10U, especially at the beginning of the season, everyone gives a ton of leeway on IP's - you have to. Late in the season, they should have stuff like that ironed out by now. (And the IP your girl was doing sounds like a DISadvantage to her - I bet she loses some speed pitching like that).

The only other thing I'd add is that IMHO, the very best time to call an IP like the one you saw (again, assuming this is not early in the season as mentioned above) is the first pitch of the game. No one on, just a ball for a penalty.