Altered Bat? You make this call (or do you?).

[nc452010]

ASA SP men's game.....league (same rules with a couple minor changes). There's some "chatter" in the community that one of the teams is utilizing a "hot" bat (believed by some to be shaved). One of the biggest "chatters" is the grounds supervisor (for this field) who is also the coach of a team in the same league.

Umpire knows of the "chatter" about the alleged altered bat. He is also a very knowledgable and well-respected umpire. Those two things are never in question.

So.....part-way through the game, the umpire "feels/senses/thinks" he's seeing better hitting than should be happening (he may or may not have had this team's games earlier in the year to discern this.....I have no idea). He decides that he will deem the bat (although it has all proper stamps and is by all intents and purposes, legal) "altered".

Via the league, he has no authority to confiscate the bat. He offers to have the bat tested (although I'm not sure what this proves, once the bat has already been removed with no empirical evidence to sunstantiate said removal).

My question is........has a HUGE can of worms not been opened? What's to stop EVERY team from simply saying "That bat's hot"; "He can't hit 'em that far": etc...; etc...; etc.... ? Where does it end? How do you qualify your decision to remove a bat on "feel"? How do you remove a bat (by rule) and not the player?

If I'm wrong.....just tell me I'm wrong. I think this is an area we do NOT belong in.....nor should we want to be there.

Thanks.

jeff

[charliej47]

ASA - Points of Emphasis: The batter is out and disqualified for the game the altered/illegal bat is removed form the game. ASA Rule 7.6 Batter enters batter's box with alter bat.

USSSA - The owner of the bat MAY either: SEC.10.E.1.A) Allow a USSSA Director to inspect the bat.......
B) accept a one-year (up to life for second time offenders), suspension from USSSA play with no right to appeal.

SEC.10.E.2.B Accept a one-year.......

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by nc452010

ASA SP men's game.....league (same rules with a couple minor changes). There's some "chatter" in the community that one of the teams is utilizing a "hot" bat (believed by some to be shaved). One of the biggest "chatters" is the grounds supervisor (for this field) who is also the coach of a team in the same league.

Umpire knows of the "chatter" about the alleged altered bat. He is also a very knowledgable and well-respected umpire. Those two things are never in question.

So.....part-way through the game, the umpire "feels/senses/thinks" he's seeing better hitting than should be happening (he may or may not have had this team's games earlier in the year to discern this.....I have no idea). He decides that he will deem the bat (although it has all proper stamps and is by all intents and purposes, legal) "altered".

Via the league, he has no authority to confiscate the bat. He offers to have the bat tested (although I'm not sure what this proves, once the bat has already been removed with no empirical evidence to sunstantiate said removal).

My question is........has a HUGE can of worms not been opened? What's to stop EVERY team from simply saying "That bat's hot"; "He can't hit 'em that far": etc...; etc...; etc.... ? Where does it end? How do you qualify your decision to remove a bat on "feel"? How do you remove a bat (by rule) and not the player?

If I'm wrong.....just tell me I'm wrong. I think this is an area we do NOT belong in.....nor should we want to be there.

Thanks.

jeff

If you insist. Okay, you are wrong!

But seriously folks, if you have no evidence other than performance, leave the bat alone. Players are going to cry no matter what you do.

When told that something must be wrong if everyone is using the same bat, this is purely an indicator that is may be, not that it is. I had a team this year that only had two bats. If they hit the **** out of the ball, should I take them because that is all they used?

If this happend as posted, and I'm not making any assumptions here, the bat should not have been taken without cause.

[nc452010]

The league doesn't want to (and doesn't) make arrangements for umpires to confiscate bats (for testing). So.....IF you (the umpire) remove a bat from play (claiming it's shaved), you're doing so on your observation, ONLY.

What rule do you cite for removing the bat in that instance? Let's assume your heart's in the right place....and you cite "safety". Can you REALLY do that? Under what rule? Why couldn't you remove a fantastic hitter from the game, citing the same rule??? What's the difference?

I think the umpire in question (who is a friend of mine....and a VERY good umpire) opened up a HUGE can of worms.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by nc452010

...has a HUGE can of worms not been opened?

No. The huge can of worms has been opened.

Originally Posted by nc452010

What's to stop EVERY team from simply saying "That bat's hot"; "He can't hit 'em that far": etc...; etc...; etc.... ?

Now, you know they will do that even if the worm can remains closed.

Originally Posted by nc452010

Where does it end?

I think it should end with your organization reducing umpire game fees. If they are paying fees substantial enough to allow umpires to buy such sophisticated personal bat testing equipment, or to fund independent laboratory testing from their own pockets, then I think the fees might be slightly higher than those in the rest of the country.

BTW, my personal bat testing equipment doubles as a hair adornment regulator:

[nc452010]

This is a serious question. The person who made this call is an awesome umpire (IMO) and someone I look up to. We talk from time to time on situations that occur at our games. This was one he made public.

I can't for the life of me understand this one, though. Can he cite "safety" as his reasoning? If so, under what rule can he do so?

I'm not questioning his call. I'm questioning how he got there.

Was the bat "hot"? Who knows? Can anyone (short of confiscating and testing it) say so, unequivocally?

IMO....if you can't answer that question in the affirmative, you have to let the equipment remain in play. OR.....cite a rule you're removing it under (and another for not removing the player).

Yeah....IMO....BIG can of worms.

[umpirebob71]

Personally, I think it's absolutely pathetic that these so called "ballplayers" have to resort to altering their bats to attempt to show what kind of man they think they are, and hitting softballs further than they should be. This is slo-pitch rec ball, for God's sake. The only thing easier to do, is to have them play T-ball.
If it were up to me, tomorrow, every bat, other than wood, would be illegal to use. Let them start hitting wood bats, and then we separate the men from the boys.

[Stu Clary]

Something I learned when working men's SP: ALL the other teams have shaved/rolled/otherwise altered bats.

Unless I see something obvious - and I haven't yet - I'm not getting rid of any bats.

[NCASAUmp]

I won't comment too much about this issue, but I will say this much. The problem becomes ten times greater when you have someone in charge who is unwilling to do anything about the problem, including backing up the umpires when they see bats that clearly are not legit.

When you have such a person at the helm, your role as umpire becomes that much more dangerous. Your credibility can go right out the window, not because you were right or wrong about a bat, but because you did the right thing and didn't get backed at the critical moment.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by nc452010

Yeah....IMO....BIG can of worms.

Or maybe a barrel of snakes.

[nc452010]

I won't comment too much about this issue, but I will say this much. The problem becomes ten times greater when you have someone in charge who is unwilling to do anything about the problem, including backing up the umpires when they see bats that clearly are not legit.

When you have such a person at the helm, your role as umpire becomes that much more dangerous. Your credibility can go right out the window, not because you were right or wrong about a bat, but because you did the right thing and didn't get backed at the critical moment.

Can you help me out, here? How was/is this discernable? (see underlined/bolded).

[AtlUmpSteve]

Nc452010;

In my opinion, you are making way too much out of this. Or maybe your buddy did, but get over it, and work with the program.

When you, your buddy, or any other umpire does a bat inspection, it is your sole judgment if a bat has a dent, a crack, a rivet popped out, or any other defect that renders it illegal. That is YOUR JUDGMENT for this game. It matters not even one iota if every other umpire thinks it is okay, you get to make that judgment for this game. In a tournament, the UIC can overrule you; in a league game, it is your call.

He threw that bat out; he has that authority for that game, and, frankly, any other game he umpires. He can't force the league to throw it out, or even to test it; but he can disqualify it any game he chooses. Is it altered? I don't know, and I'm not sure he knows, but he can do what he did.

This isn't much different a discussion than the coach who thinks he can stand outside the dugout while on defense; he can't, according to the rules. He will tell you he isn't gaining an unfair advantage; your response should be that if there is no advantage gained, it shouldn't matter to him that he can't do it.

Now, substitute that bat, and using it, for being outside the dugout, and doing it during live ball play. If the bat isn't enhanced illegally, then there is no disadvantage from being told it is judged illegal for this game. There is no protest available, since umpire judgment is the criteria. So, get over it, and move on.

[nc452010]

"Get over it"?

That's rich. I said I had no problem with the end-result. I wanna know how he got there.

So...which rule do you use, if you wanna go "there"?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by nc452010

Can you help me out, here? How was/is this discernable? (see underlined/bolded).

I'd rather not comment much further on this specific incident, and there are many reasons why.

Originally Posted by nc452010

"Get over it"?

That's rich. I said I had no problem with the end-result. I wanna know how he got there.

So...which rule do you use, if you wanna go "there"?

nc452010, just giving you a fair heads up for why you might be taking a bit of fire here. We don't know you, so we're going to be a bit, well, apprehensive of you. This is a forum for officials, and quite frankly, we get plenty of trolls on here looking to **** with some umpires (like we don't hear enough sh1t during games?).

So if your intentions are good, welcome to the forum. We'll answer your questions, but until (or even if) we get to know you better, don't be surprised if we're a little wary of newcomers, and don't be surprised if our answers reflect that apprehension.

If you're a coach or player, just say so. No harm in it. If you're an umpire, introduce yourself.

Just recognize the position we're in here.

[nc452010]

Perfectly understandable.

I used to post here quite a bit....under the "handle" of NCBlue (or something like that.....as it's been years). My email addy has changed, so I didn't go through the process of trying to resurrect my login information.

So, I felt it would be easier to simply re-register.

My playing background aside, I've been an active ASA umpire in NC, since 2000. I took this year off to train for a few triathlons, but I still stay in touch with my cohorts....who ARE my friends.....all. I have a DEEP respect for the gentleman I'm speaking of. That cannot be misconstrued. He's one outstanding umpire....and I've learned a ton from him.

From my playing days, I sometimes see what "we" do from that side, also. It's no more than a healthy regard for "their" world, though. I haven't played the game in many years. As far as softball goes.....I'm an umpire.

I just felt, in this instance, that a can of worms was opened. I wanna know HOW my friend got to where he did.....and I'm not entirely convinced by his explanation (citing the altered bat rule.....but not how he arrived at it being altered....other than his "observance").

Out of respect for my friend, I won't get into naming names. And, if you guys more experienced (if you are....lol) than me tell me "that's just one of those things".......I'll accept that.

Is it?

Edit** I just searched NCBlue....and if I used that handle, it got erased when the site (obviously....lol) switched over to the current format.