DP/FLEX attack

[CecilOne]

Are you all familiar with these articles?
What do you think about them?

http://softball.officiating.com/x/article/4821

[SC Ump]

I only saw the first couple of paragraphs noted at your link. I assume the links are related to this bulletin board we are posting under, but my password here did not seem to work at that site. I was not able to sign on and read the remainder of these articles. (In the past at least one board member of officiating.com has specifically stated that he feels spamming is proper and is a benefit of this board. I limit the amount of information I provide.)

I don't know David Emerling, the author of these articles. In clicking on the author's bio page, it mentioned in part, "...he's found his true calling in baseball." Perhaps he knows some of softball, too, but I am surprised that he blatantly left out details in the parts I read, either by misunderstanding or to make his point. I got the impression he was in deep into a subject he did not fully understand.

In the first couple of paragraphs of the first article, he notes it is "a stroke of genius", by immediately substituting in the flex after the DP had reached base and then subsequently putting in a courtesy runner. He did not note that the DP would be considered to have left the game, and thus it was not the "stroke of genius" he was implying. (I found it also interesting that he assumed, as BB people do, that the Flex would always be the pitcher.)

The second article then discussed how hard it was to understand the rule. As compared to what, the DH? Does he have any idea how complicated the DH rule in BB can get? As a season ticket holder for a AA team, I can tell you that it is just as funky as the DP/FLex if not more so. OBR 6.10 states "The Designated Hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player..." That means the pitcher was not locked in the spot in the line-up he initially started in, but has to switch to another spot in the line up in this condition. 6.10 also states, "Once the game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game." A defensive move that terminates the offensive strategy? How stupid is that?

The third article seems to be more of the same, expressing his desire to keep the rules "intuitive." Well, heck, let's just just rule "ties go to the runner", "the hands are part of the bat" and improper softball pitching techniques are called "balks." Then everyone would be intuitively happy.

I like baseball and I like softball. I also like Black-Jack, but they are all different games.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Are you all familiar with these articles?
What do you think about them?

http://softball.officiating.com/x/article/4821

No, but familiar with the author from this and other softball boards. He's a baseball umpire whose daughter plays softball.

In my experiences, he is too accustomed to baseball rules which often address play-specific scenarios which most softball rule books do not.

I don't believe this person has ever undertaken any training as a softball umpire, yet has tried to learn the rules from reading and various internet sites such as this one.

I give very little credence to any opinion he offers concerning softball, but that is just my personal opinion.

[Dakota]

This only confirms my decision to not renew membership to the paid side of this site. I left because they (the editors of the paid side) did not respect softball and they did not have many (any?) qualified softball writers. And now they are stooping to having parents write softball rules articles! (I'm sorry, but being a baseball umpire and a softball parent means that in softball, he is merely a parent.)

[CecilOne]

wrt: "immediately substituting in the flex after the DP had reached base and then subsequently putting in a courtesy runner",

the pitcher/catcher is required to BAT or otherwise EARN their way on base.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

wrt: "immediately substituting in the flex after the DP had reached base and then subsequently putting in a courtesy runner",

the pitcher/catcher is required to BAT or otherwise EARN their way on base.

Mike can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe ASA requires the pitcher/catcher to earn their way on the way NFHS does.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Mike can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe ASA requires the pitcher/catcher to earn their way on the way NFHS does.

Still - only can't run for DP, making his example legal, but a loophole which should be closed by now.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Mike can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe ASA requires the pitcher/catcher to earn their way on the way NFHS does.

That is true, but the rule specifically notes that you cannot CR for the DP if batting for pitcher or catcher. In the casebook (not in front of me), I believe it notes that a team cannot use a reentry for the purpose of utilizing a CR.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Yes; the caseplay 8.11.3a notes that 8-10.B states that you cannot use re-entry of a starter for a substitute to get a courtesy runner. That does not exactly (although it is clearly the intent, I believe) preclude the scenario stated. Entering the FLEX (who is already in the game) for the DP is not a substitution (relative to the FLEX), and is not a re-entry.

I'm not sure how many coaches would burn the re-entry of the starting DP to get a runner when that particular runner is an available sub (must be, to be eligible to be a CR), rather than burn the first use of the sub, but that seems to be an available option in ASA. It does leave the sub as an option to another position, however.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Just to add an opinion on the original post, it seems to me that his argument is that 1) he likes the baseball DH rule better because he can understand it, 2) a relatively small alphabet association (NSA) has used the DH rule to establish it's niche to be different from ASA, and 3) he thinks enough other people don't understand the DP/FLEX rule.

So, he thinks ASA, as the NGB for softball, should, therefore, go away from the ISF (international) rule, and that NFHS, the high school feeder to college, should go away from the NCAA rule. Hardly a strong argument, in my mind.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

So, he thinks ASA, as the NGB for softball, should, therefore, go away from the ISF (international) rule, and that NFHS, the high school feeder to college, should go away from the NCAA rule. Hardly a strong argument, in my mind.

Steve,

This makes no sense since part of the NGB's mission is to provide a team to represent the USA in international play. And, I think it's been a while since HS been the feeder for NCAA.

Mike

[AtlUmpSteve]

Maybe I misstated it, then; or was unclear. The NGB's mission, to provide a team to represent the USA, would lead the association to attempt to maintain similar rules; just as pitching distance is attempted to match ISF distances. My intent was to indicate he is foolish to suggest that ASA should leave that thought pattern, to dumb down a rule he can't understand.

While I generally agree that high school doesn't exactly lead to NCAA, NFHS thinks it does. Certainly the high school coaches believe they do more to get girls in colleges than travel ball. With that thought process, again foolish to suggest that NFHS will dumb down their rule to the older, more restrictive DH rule.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Maybe I misstated it, then; or was unclear. The NGB's mission, to provide a team to represent the USA, would lead the association to attempt to maintain similar rules; just as pitching distance is attempted to match ISF distances. My intent was to indicate he is foolish to suggest that ASA should leave that thought pattern, to dumb down a rule he can't understand.

While I generally agree that high school doesn't exactly lead to NCAA, NFHS thinks it does. Certainly the high school coaches believe they do more to get girls in colleges than travel ball. With that thought process, again foolish to suggest that NFHS will dumb down their rule to the older, more restrictive DH rule.

No, I understand that you were offering your impression of the article's meaning and it was that to which I was replying.

If I follow up on my opinion of the Fed's belief, I'm sure to get blasted, but in all honesty, at least in my area, HS ball pales in comparison to the doors opened by highly competitive travel ball regardless of the assn. OTOH, just think how much money the parents have wasted all these years going to NCs and showcase tournaments when they just could have stayed at home and waited for the scouts to call. Assuming, that is, that the Fed's self-evaluation as Steve sees it is correct.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Yes; the caseplay 8.11.3a notes that 8-10.B states that you cannot use re-entry of a starter for a substitute to get a courtesy runner. That does not exactly (although it is clearly the intent, I believe) preclude the scenario stated. Entering the FLEX (who is already in the game) for the DP is not a substitution (relative to the FLEX), and is not a re-entry.

As above, a loophole which should be closed by now.