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-   -   Helping the runner (http://forum.officiating.com/football/96137-helping-runner.html)

paxsonref Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:47am

Helping the runner
 
Take a look at these two videos...do you have anything here?

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/5m6AH7k8XD8?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/9j-lm6UgAw4?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

JRutledge Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:49am

No and No.

Those are pushing the pile and I could make a case that the runner was not helped by anyone behind him.

Peace

MD Longhorn Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:31pm

No for both.

InsideTheStripe Thu Sep 19, 2013 01:15pm

No on both counts.

paxsonref Thu Sep 19, 2013 01:23pm

I generally agree with the responses so far, but when a coach sees this and asks you why its not a penalty, it gets tougher to respond, since the rule book wording and case play is pretty clear.... how much would the player have to do in order for you to make this call?

bisonlj Thu Sep 19, 2013 01:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by paxsonref (Post 905510)
I generally agree with the responses so far, but when a coach sees this and asks you why its not a penalty, it gets tougher to respond, since the rule book wording and case play is pretty clear.... how much would the player have to do in order for you to make this call?

This is not the type of play the rule is trying to prevent. It has more to do with holding up a player about to go down or directly pulling a player forward.

bigjohn Thu Sep 19, 2013 01:40pm

ASSISTING RUNNER
9.1 SITUATION: With fourth and goal from Bís 1-yard line, runner A1 is pushed
at the line of scrimmage from behind by A2 in an effort by A2 to get him into the
end zone. RULING: A2 has fouled by helping the runner. The foul carries a 5-yard
penalty. Therefore it will be fourth and goal from Bís 6-yard line if the penalty is
accepted

CT1 Thu Sep 19, 2013 02:00pm

No in both plays.

Suudy Thu Sep 19, 2013 02:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 905511)
This is not the type of play the rule is trying to prevent. It has more to do with holding up a player about to go down or directly pulling a player forward.

Or the Bush Push?

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bcl1127 Thu Sep 19, 2013 02:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by paxsonref (Post 905510)
I generally agree with the responses so far, but when a coach sees this and asks you why its not a penalty, it gets tougher to respond, since the rule book wording and case play is pretty clear.... how much would the player have to do in order for you to make this call?

I think I have called this once, one time the player bear hugged the runner and pushed him forward, it was about as obvious as it could get from the Umpire spot...

In the plays shown above, I've got nothing.

MD Longhorn Thu Sep 19, 2013 02:41pm

See William the Refrigerator Perry.

That said ... I might have called the ND-USC play a penalty, had it been in one of my games. 2 hands directly on the ballcarrier being pushed is one thing. Crashing into a pile contacting more than just the ballcarrier is nothing.

JRutledge Thu Sep 19, 2013 02:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by paxsonref (Post 905510)
I generally agree with the responses so far, but when a coach sees this and asks you why its not a penalty, it gets tougher to respond, since the rule book wording and case play is pretty clear.... how much would the player have to do in order for you to make this call?

It is not hard at all. There are rules and interpretations of the rules. The NF could put out an interpretation that clearly makes this illegal and us video as they did when they added the Horse Collar rule. This is a rather routine play and happens in almost every game. If the NF or your state said this was a "helping the runner" foul, they would say it was. I really do not care what coaches think the rule means, because rules have interpretations too. If that was my concern then every time a coach tells me what they "think" a rule has been for years (Like when they can contact an eligible receiver) I would never stop worrying. And the NF uses Simplified and Illustrated Rulebooks and could have covered this for years to explain what officials were not doing well. They have yet to do such a thing and there is a reason. Helping the runner is picking up or lifting someone to gain yards. Pushing the pile has never been seen as that by the rules makers at any level.

Peace

asdf Thu Sep 19, 2013 03:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 905512)
ASSISTING RUNNER
9.1 SITUATION: With fourth and goal from B’s 1-yard line, runner A1 is pushed
at the line of scrimmage from behind by A2 in an effort by A2 to get him into the
end zone. RULING: A2 has fouled by helping the runner. The foul carries a 5-yard
penalty. Therefore it will be fourth and goal from B’s 6-yard line if the penalty is
accepted

And naturally, you have omitted the interpretation handed down by your state association (for years) that reads, "pushing the pile is not a foul."

bisonlj Thu Sep 19, 2013 03:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suudy (Post 905516)
Or the Bush Push?

<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="//www.youtube.com/v/yxRK1jcCMsk?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="//www.youtube.com/v/yxRK1jcCMsk?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

NCAA rule changed last year removing a push as an act that constitutes assisting the runner. If this happened this year there is no question it is NOT a foul.

Welpe Fri Sep 20, 2013 07:43am

I STILL think that at the time, the Bush Push should have been called. Not many (other than ND fans) agree with me.

Now it is a moot point and I'm thankful for that. :)


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