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Old Wed Sep 12, 2007, 02:07am
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NFHS Clock Status

What is the clock status if B intercepts and, prior to the interception, B commits a foul?

I think the ball will be given back to A, and the clock should start on the snap because the interception was the action that caused the clock to become stopped.

Rule 3-4-2-b-3 states:
ART. 2 . . . The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal for other than a free kick if the clock was stopped:
b. Because the ball has become dead following any foul provided in either (a) or (b)
3. The action which caused the down to end did not also cause the clock to be stopped.
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Old Wed Sep 12, 2007, 06:10am
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Clock starts on the “ready” or on the “snap”

To know when the clock will start after a penalty, we must know what caused the clock to stop. One magazine said it well, stating that there are “major clock stoppers” and “minor clock stoppers.” With a “major clock stopper”, the clock will start on the snap, and with a “minor clock stopper” the clock will start on the ready. What happened during the down in which the foul occurred determines if we will start the clock on the ready or the snap. If a dead ball foul occurs (false start, late hit, etc…), what happened on the previous down will dictate when the clock will start.

Major clock stoppers –
ball or player with ball ends up OOB,
incomplete pass, whether legal or illegal
COP (change of possession),
delay of game penalty accepted,
time out granted to a team,
attempted try, completed FG, safety, or touchback
period ends
a team attempts to consume time illegally (repeated fouls to stop the clock)
TV or radio timeout
new series to B, not to A following a turn over


Minor clock stoppers –
player ends up with ball in possession and inbounds,
penalty during or between downs,
officials time out for injury, heat & humidity, measurement, coaches conference, equipment repair,
the dreaded inadvertent whistle
new series awarded to A even if a TO is involved
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Old Wed Sep 12, 2007, 06:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winkley
What is the clock status if B intercepts and, prior to the interception, B commits a foul?

I think the ball will be given back to A, and the clock should start on the snap because the interception was the action that caused the clock to become stopped.


Rule 3-4-2-b-3 states:
ART. 2 . . . The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal for other than a free kick if the clock was stopped:
b. Because the ball has become dead following any foul provided in either (a) or (b)
3. The action which caused the down to end did not also cause the clock to be stopped.
The clock starts on the ready. The interception is of no consequence as B is not going to keep the ball.
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Old Wed Sep 12, 2007, 08:15am
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Where the ball became dead in B's possession is going to control if the clock starts on the ready or the snap. If B went OOB to end the down then the clock starts on the snap. If B was tackled in-bounds then the clock starts on the ready.

By the way, the clock stopped because of the foul, not because B had possession of the ball. Either would stop the clock but the foul takes precedence over the possession. If the penalty is declined then the fact that B gets a new series controls the clock.
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Old Wed Sep 12, 2007, 11:45am
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IMO, the interception by B never really occurred due to its foul, so the clock starts on the ready. The clock would've stopped because of the penalty anyway.
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Old Wed Sep 12, 2007, 02:43pm
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REPLY: Winkley...the clock stopped for an official's timeout because of two reasons: (1) there was a foul during the down, and (2) there was a change of possession during the down. However, the down did not end because of either of these two items. The down apparently ended because the B runner was tackled. Since the reason the clock stopped and the down ended are not the same, you can't use 3-4-2b-3 as justification for starting the clock on the snap.

By far, the most common misconception about when to start the clock is the myth that if there is a COP during the down, the clock starts on the snap. That's just not entirely true. The clock will start on the snap if you award B a new series (i.e. give him a first down and reset the chains). But since an accepted penalty in your play causes B to lose the ball he gained in the COP, the clock will probably start on the ready. Since you didn't tell us exactly how the play ended, it's impossible to say for sure.

There aren't too many things that cause the clock to stop and the down to end simultaneously, but here are some:
(a) an incomplete pass
(b) ball is out of bounds (loose or in runner's possession)
(c) score or a touchback
(d) fair catch

Help me guys if I've forgotten any
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Old Wed Sep 12, 2007, 04:11pm
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Lightbulb Canadian Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winkley
What is the clock status if B intercepts and, prior to the interception, B commits a foul?
CANADIAN RULING:

Before 3-minute warning: on the ready.
After 3-minute warning: on the snap.
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Old Wed Sep 12, 2007, 06:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob M.
REPLY: Winkley...the clock stopped for an official's timeout because of two reasons: (1) there was a foul during the down, and (2) there was a change of possession during the down. However, the down did not end because of either of these two items. The down apparently ended because the B runner was tackled. Since the reason the clock stopped and the down ended are not the same, you can't use 3-4-2b-3 as justification for starting the clock on the snap.

By far, the most common misconception about when to start the clock is the myth that if there is a COP during the down, the clock starts on the snap. That's just not entirely true. The clock will start on the snap if you award B a new series (i.e. give him a first down and reset the chains). But since an accepted penalty in your play causes B to lose the ball he gained in the COP, the clock will probably start on the ready. Since you didn't tell us exactly how the play ended, it's impossible to say for sure.

There aren't too many things that cause the clock to stop and the down to end simultaneously, but here are some:
(a) an incomplete pass
(b) ball is out of bounds (loose or in runner's possession)
(c) score or a touchback
(d) fair catch

Help me guys if I've forgotten any
Thank you, Bob. That explanation helps a lot.

My rationale was that I was thinking about what the result of the play would have been had the penalty not occurred. We would have had a first down for B, thus the clock would start on the snap.

Now I understand that there is no "apparent change of possession" in high school ball. B was not actually awarded the first down, so the status of the ball was a completed pass(?), causing the clock to start on the ready.
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Old Thu Sep 13, 2007, 12:44am
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Here's an even better explanation from p. 60-61 of Football Rule Differences 2007: NFHS & NCAA Rules Comparedby Paul Whiteside, George Demetriou, and Jeffrey Stern:
The game clock starts on the snap whenever team B is awarded a new series; however, there are different definitions for when a new series is awarded.
NFHS:A new series is not awarded to team B until all acts that occurred during the down, including penalties other than nonplayer or unsportsmanlike, are considered (3-4-3b, 5-1-2b)
Play 1:Second and five on team A's 35 yardline. B2 intercepts A1's forward pass and is tackled inbounds on team B's 42 yardline. While the pass was in flight, B2 committed pass interference and the penalty is accepted.

Ruling 1: NFHS: The game clock starts on the ready. Team B was not awarded a new series because of the penalty.
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Old Thu Sep 13, 2007, 11:10am
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Anybody got a NFHS Casebook play to back this up? I'm fine with using all of the other great "unofficial" books that are out there, but if I'm going to have to hang my hat on it either way, I need it from an official source like the Fed casebook or an NCAA A.R.

I'm not sold either way quite yet, but I do know that there are many many officials out there who believe that "Take the penalty out of the equation, and whatever happened is what you do with the clock (either snap or RFP)"

I've always thought that that was a little too simple but then I'm a "letter of the rule" kind of guy when it comes to debating things like this and who's got the next pitcher is riding on who's right.

I like Bob M.'s rationale above but then again, on the other hand we all need to really ensure that we don't read too much into the "letter of the rule" either.

So long story short, is there a Fed casebook play that handles clock status on this?

thanks
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Old Thu Sep 13, 2007, 10:55pm
MJT MJT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ_NV
Anybody got a NFHS Casebook play to back this up? I'm fine with using all of the other great "unofficial" books that are out there, but if I'm going to have to hang my hat on it either way, I need it from an official source like the Fed casebook or an NCAA A.R.

I'm not sold either way quite yet, but I do know that there are many many officials out there who believe that "Take the penalty out of the equation, and whatever happened is what you do with the clock (either snap or RFP)"

I've always thought that that was a little too simple but then I'm a "letter of the rule" kind of guy when it comes to debating things like this and who's got the next pitcher is riding on who's right.

I like Bob M.'s rationale above but then again, on the other hand we all need to really ensure that we don't read too much into the "letter of the rule" either.

So long story short, is there a Fed casebook play that handles clock status on this?

thanks
3.4.2.D is the closest we have.
K11 punts the ball from a fourth and 10 situation. R1 catches the kick and returns 10 yards. During the down, but prior to the catch, K3 holds R2. R accepts the foul.
Ruling: After enforcement, the clock starts on the ready-for-play signal. (3-4-2b3)

This situation give the ball back to A/K as in the original question and since neither team was awarded a 1st down after a legal kick, we start the clock on the RFP cuz it became dead inbounds. I think that is a similar scenario to the original play in which you want a case play to back what we are saying. Without the penalty, we are on the snap, but cuz of the penalty we are not.
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Old Fri Sep 14, 2007, 12:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob M.
REPLY: Winkley...the clock stopped for an official's timeout because of two reasons: (1) there was a foul during the down, and (2) there was a change of possession during the down. However, the down did not end because of either of these two items. The down apparently ended because the B runner was tackled. Since the reason the clock stopped and the down ended are not the same, you can't use 3-4-2b-3 as justification for starting the clock on the snap.

By far, the most common misconception about when to start the clock is the myth that if there is a COP during the down, the clock starts on the snap. That's just not entirely true. The clock will start on the snap if you award B a new series (i.e. give him a first down and reset the chains). But since an accepted penalty in your play causes B to lose the ball he gained in the COP, the clock will probably start on the ready. Since you didn't tell us exactly how the play ended, it's impossible to say for sure.

There aren't too many things that cause the clock to stop and the down to end simultaneously, but here are some:
(a) an incomplete pass
(b) ball is out of bounds (loose or in runner's possession)
(c) score or a touchback
(d) fair catch

Help me guys if I've forgotten any
One we would all like to forget....inadvertant whistle!
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Old Fri Sep 14, 2007, 12:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJT
3.4.2.D is the closest we have.
K11 punts the ball from a fourth and 10 situation. R1 catches the kick and returns 10 yards. During the down, but prior to the catch, K3 holds R2. R accepts the foul.
Ruling: After enforcement, the clock starts on the ready-for-play signal. (3-4-2b3)

This situation give the ball back to A/K as in the original question and since neither team was awarded a 1st down after a legal kick, we start the clock on the RFP cuz it became dead inbounds. I think that is a similar scenario to the original play in which you want a case play to back what we are saying. Without the penalty, we are on the snap, but cuz of the penalty we are not.
I have been interestingly reading the whole conversation above. I don't really like the fed's position on awarding B a new series versus apparantly awarding B a new series. Really the whole snap vs ready for play issue in the OP is based solely on this interpretation. In the NCAA that play would be on the snap, because you stopped it to apparantly award B a first down. The fed feels that if you don't actually award it, then go back to how the play ended to determine clock status. With the case book play listed above in this post, I really wonder what the fed is thinking. The statement about the end of the play not also causing the clock to stop really comes into play here. The end of the play was B in possesion after a legal kick, if the end of that play doesn't also cause the clock to stop, then the OP here most certainly won't. I must admit however that I don't agree with the case book ruling above, but as usually happens I must have missed the federations call when they were going to consult me on it : ) LOL
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Old Fri Sep 14, 2007, 08:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmathews
I have been interestingly reading the whole conversation above. I don't really like the fed's position on awarding B a new series versus apparantly awarding B a new series. Really the whole snap vs ready for play issue in the OP is based solely on this interpretation. In the NCAA that play would be on the snap, because you stopped it to apparantly award B a first down. The fed feels that if you don't actually award it, then go back to how the play ended to determine clock status. With the case book play listed above in this post, I really wonder what the fed is thinking. The statement about the end of the play not also causing the clock to stop really comes into play here. The end of the play was B in possesion after a legal kick, if the end of that play doesn't also cause the clock to stop, then the OP here most certainly won't. I must admit however that I don't agree with the case book ruling above, but as usually happens I must have missed the federations call when they were going to consult me on it : ) LOL
REPLY: There's a hair's breadth of time in 3.4.2D between the down ending and the clock stopping. The down ends because the receiver is tackled inbounds (presumably). A runner being tackled certainly causes the down to end. But the stoppage of the clock is not caused by the runner being tackled. It's a result of the immediate official's timeout that occurs because of the change of possession and/or because a foul occurred during the down. The key word is "cause." A runner being tackled here caused the down to end, but a runner being tackled never in itself 'causes' the clock to stop.

And you're certainly correct that the Fed considers the 'apparent' change of possession insufficient to start the clock on the snap. For Fed, you must actually award B a new series (reset the chains for him 1-10) in order to start on the snap.
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