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Old Tue Aug 15, 2006, 12:32pm
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Momentum Rule Discussion

Last week our study group was trying to figure out the resluts of this play. We would appreciate some input from other officials as well.

B20 intercepts a pass at B's 2 yard line. His momentum carries him into the end zone. If he falls down or takes a knee the ball comes out to the 2 yard line.

1. What if he tries to escape the defenders and still gets tackled in the end zone?

2. What if he fumbles the ball and team B recovers in the end zone?

3. What if he fumbles the ball out of the end zone? Would force be a factor?

In all cases B20 never left the endzone.
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Old Tue Aug 15, 2006, 12:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJWalt
1. What if he tries to escape the defenders and still gets tackled in the end zone?
B's ball at the 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJWalt
2. What if he fumbles the ball and team B recovers in the end zone?
B's ball at the 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJWalt
3. What if he fumbles the ball out of the end zone? Would force be a factor?
B's ball at the 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJWalt
In all cases B20 never left the endzone.
B's ball is always going to be at the 2 unless B committed a penalty in the EZ or unless the ball leaves the EZ for some reason (fumble or intercepted pass). The rule was created so that B would not get a cheap safety for plays like this inside the 5 yard line.

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Old Tue Aug 15, 2006, 12:52pm
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The momentum rule goes into effect when the B player's momentum carries him into the end zone, and it becomes dead there in his team's possession. It doesn't matter how it becomes dead, or what happens while the B player is in the end zone. So...

1. Same ruling
2. Same ruling
3. Same ruling, if by "out of the end zone" you mean out the side or back of the end zone, and not into the field of play.

Force helps you decide whether a ball that became dead in the end zone is a safety or a touchback, and since neither is the case here, force is not a factor.

If the B runner crosses into the field of play and then runs back in to the end zone, the momentum exception is cancelled, and he has forced the ball into his own end zone, so it will be a safety if the ball becomes dead there in his team's possession.
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Old Tue Aug 15, 2006, 01:07pm
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Perfect explanation guys, thank you!
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Old Tue Aug 15, 2006, 03:34pm
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Lightbulb Canadian Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJWalt
Last week our study group was trying to figure out the resluts of this play. We would appreciate some input from other officials as well.

B20 intercepts a pass at B's 2 yard line. His momentum carries him into the end zone. If he falls down or takes a knee the ball comes out to the 2 yard line.

1. What if he tries to escape the defenders and still gets tackled in the end zone?

2. What if he fumbles the ball and team B recovers in the end zone?

3. What if he fumbles the ball out of the end zone? Would force be a factor?

In all cases B20 never left the endzone.
0. B 1D/10 @ B-20.
1. B 1D/10 @ B-20.
2. B 1D/10 @ B-20.
3. Hmmm.... good one. I believe still B 1D/10 @ B-20.
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Old Fri Aug 18, 2006, 06:16pm
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Enforcement Spot

A has the ball at B's 20 yard line. A1's pass is intercepted at the three by B1 and his momentum takes him into B's end zone. A2 attempts to tackle B1 and grabs his face mask. B1 fumbles and the ball rolls back into the field of play and goes out of bounds at the five. Where is the enforcement spot and why?
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Old Fri Aug 18, 2006, 07:29pm
MJT MJT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGF6
A has the ball at B's 20 yard line. A1's pass is intercepted at the three by B1 and his momentum takes him into B's end zone. A2 attempts to tackle B1 and grabs his face mask. B1 fumbles and the ball rolls back into the field of play and goes out of bounds at the five. Where is the enforcement spot and why?
The enforcement spot is the 20 yard line, so it will 1-10 for B at the 25 yard line if it was a 5 yard FM penalty. The reason is cuz the final result of the play is a touchback, so the enforcement is spot is the 20.
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Old Fri Aug 18, 2006, 09:54pm
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MJT, The final result was not a touch back. The ball was fumbled before B was tackled.
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Old Fri Aug 18, 2006, 11:01pm
MJT MJT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGF6
MJT, The final result was not a touch back. The ball was fumbled before B was tackled.
It indeed is.

8.5.2.a Exception says " When a defensive player intercepts an opponent's forward pass; intercepts or recovers an opponent's fumble or backward pass; or an R player catches or recovers a scrimmage kick or free kick between his 5-yard line and the goal line, and his original momentum carries him into the end zone where the ball is declared dead in his team's possession or it goes out of bounds in the end zone, the ball belongs to B at the spot where the pass or fumble was intercepted or recovered or the kick was caught or recovered."
Now the ball was not declared dead in his team's possession or go OOB's in the EZ, so the momentum exception does NOT apply and the result of the play is a TB. The following Redding discussion and case book play will demonstrate my point.

The Redding Study Guide states "When the run ends in the end zone after a change of possession, the basic spot is the succeeding spot. In all cases the succeeding spot associated with the run related to the foul will be the 20 yard line (Diehl interp.)"

From the case book.
10.4.5 SITUATION G: B1 intercepts A1's pass in B's end zone where B1 is grabbed by the face mask, then fumbles while in the end zone and (a) the ball rolls back into the field of play and then goes out of bounds at B's 2-yard line; (b) the ball rolls back into the field of play where B7 recovers the ball at B's 5-yard line. RULING: In both (a) and (b), the basic spot is the end of the run where fumble occurred, therefore, the 20-yard line.

The only difference between this case book play and your is that the INT was in the EZ and not at the 3, but I showed above how the momentum exception does not apply to the play you wrote.
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Old Fri Aug 18, 2006, 11:42pm
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The difference in 10.4.5 Sit G is that the ball was intercepted in the end zone. If tackled, the result would have been a touch back, therefore the enforcement spot is the 20. I agree with all of that. However, in my play the result would not have resulted in a touch back because of the momentum rule, even though it dosen't apply because B was not downed in the end zone.

10.5.2 Sit. B is closer to my play:

B1 intercepts A1's pass at B's 6-yard line. He reverses his field back through his end zone where he is grabbed by the face mask and fumbles the ball out of bounds at B's 3 yard line. Ruling: The basic spot is the goal line. It would be B's ball, first and 10, at B's 15-yard line. Comment: Any loose ball that occurs after a run ends, in the end zone is ignored in determining the basic spot for penality enforcement.
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Old Sat Aug 19, 2006, 12:11am
MJT MJT is offline
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Here is some more support of the penalty being administered from the 20.

From the Redding Study Guide, "When the final result of the play is neither a TB or safety, the rules do not specifically address how to enforce the penalty. The run may end in the EZ without the ball being declared dead there." This is your play. Continuing the quote, "The ball may be fumbled in the EZ and subsequently recovered in the field of play, or go OOB's beween the goal lines. Without a COP, when the run ends in the EZ, penalties are inforced under the ABOPriciple. When the run ends in the end zone after a change of possession, the basic spot is the succeeding spot. In all cases the succeeding spot associated with the run related to the foul will be the 20 yard line."

Also, as I stated before since the ball was not declared dead in his team's possession or go OOB's in the EZ, the momentum exception does NOT apply. This is why the result of the play is a TB.

There is another play similar in which the player possesses the ball at the 3, momentum takes him into the EZ, face mask and he fumbles ball OOB's at the 2. The result is a TB. I cannot find it for the life of me right now. It is 12:10 and I'm done for the night. I am sure others will jump in tomorrow. I'll check after I'm done golfing.
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Old Sat Aug 19, 2006, 08:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJT
There is another play similar in which the player possesses the ball at the 3, momentum takes him into the EZ, face mask and he fumbles ball OOB's at the 2. The result is a TB. I cannot find it for the life of me right now. It is 12:10 and I'm done for the night. I am sure others will jump in tomorrow. I'll check after I'm done golfing.
Ah, see, while I agree that the NFHS wants fouls in these situations enforced from the 20 (and, for the record, blech!), with no foul on this play, I see no reason why B wouldn't take over at the B2. See NF 4-3-2.

(Edited due to reading casebook 10.4.3C comment.)

Last edited by The Roamin' Umpire; Sat Aug 19, 2006 at 09:17am.
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Old Sat Aug 19, 2006, 08:23am
MJT MJT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire
Ah, see, while I agree that the NFHS wants fouls in these situations enforced from the 20 (and, for the record, blech!), with no foul on this play, I see no reason why B wouldn't take over at the B2. See NF 4-3-2.
I do not see how 4-3-2 says B would take over at the 2. Here it is.

4-3-2. When the out-of-bounds spot is between the goal lines, the ball shall be put in play at the inbounds spot unless a forward pass is involved. If the out-of-bounds spot is behind a goal line, it is a safety, field goal or touchback. If the ball touches a pylon, it is out of bounds behind the goal line.

The OOB's spot is betweeen the goal lines but why are you saying then that the IB's spot is the 2? Do you not agree that the final result is a TB in the play I am describing? The momemtum exception is only in effect "where the ball is declared dead in his team's possession or it goes out of bounds in the end zone, the ball belongs to B at the spot where the pass or fumble was intercepted or recovered or the kick was caught or recovered." That did not happen and that is why the momentum exception is not in place.
Going golfing! Check back in a couple of hours.
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Old Sat Aug 19, 2006, 09:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJT
I do not see how 4-3-2 says B would take over at the 2. Here it is.

4-3-2. When the out-of-bounds spot is between the goal lines, the ball shall be put in play at the inbounds spot unless a forward pass is involved. If the out-of-bounds spot is behind a goal line, it is a safety, field goal or touchback. If the ball touches a pylon, it is out of bounds behind the goal line.
The sentence in bold makes it fairly clear to me.

Quote:
The OOB's spot is betweeen the goal lines but why are you saying then that the IB's spot is the 2? Do you not agree that the final result is a TB in the play I am describing?
I'm afraid you're correct - I don't agree.

Quote:
The momemtum exception is only in effect "where the ball is declared dead in his team's possession or it goes out of bounds in the end zone, the ball belongs to B at the spot where the pass or fumble was intercepted or recovered or the kick was caught or recovered." That did not happen and that is why the momentum exception is not in place.
I concur wholeheartedly - the momentum exception is not in place. But consider just what it's an exception TO: 8-5-2a, which describes when a safety occurs. This simply cannot be a touchback, because the receiving team forced the ball into their own EZ. Also, every single situation in 8-5-3, which defines touchback, requires the ball to be dead behind the goal line.

Also, I need to recant what I said previously about the enforcement spot on fouls on plays like this - see my post higher up in the thread.
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Old Sat Aug 19, 2006, 09:21am
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Hold the phone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JGF6
A has the ball at B's 20 yard line. A1's pass is intercepted at the three by B1 and his momentum takes him into B's end zone. A2 attempts to tackle B1 and grabs his face mask. B1 fumbles and the ball rolls back into the field of play and goes out of bounds at the five. Where is the enforcement spot and why?
After replying the first time, I happened to catch casebook 10.4.3C. In particular, the last sentence of the comment is telling:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFHS Casebook 10.4.3C Comment
... If "momentum" is not involved, the end of the run is the goal line.
Momentum does not apply here, since the ball isn't dead behind the goal line. Therefore, enforce this foul from the goal line.

Note this is very different from the ruling where the interception takes place in the end zone - there the NFHS (with no rules support) wants the foul enforced from the 20, according to 10.4.5G.
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