The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 02:45pm
I got a Basketball Jones!
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hunger
Posts: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Bill View Post
Anyway, explain the rolling part. You say sliding and rolling. Were there multiple rolls (i.e., rolling)? I think that's what AremRed is getting at. Multiple rolls sounds like a travel.
Kindly cite a rules reference for FED or NCAA that provides for such an outcome where the actions are clearly and specifically the result of momentum.
__________________
Lah me..
(In honor of Jurassic Ref, R.I.P.)
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 02:49pm
I got a Basketball Jones!
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hunger
Posts: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
Mark never mentioned when the player gathered the ball or if the player rolled over again after the sliding was done.
Matters not one iota. 'Gather' nor player control are part of this particular equation whose only meaningful element is momentum and the effects thereof. Stop overthinking these situations. It gives the appearance you lack basic rules knowledge.
__________________
Lah me..
(In honor of Jurassic Ref, R.I.P.)
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 02:50pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Rollin', Rollin', Rollin' On The River ...

Sliding, I get. Multiple rolls? I would like this to be investigated further.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 02:53pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach View Post
kindly cite a rules reference for fed or ncaa that provides for such an outcome where the actions are clearly and specifically the result of momentum.
nfhs:

Quote:
4.44.5 situation b: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can a1 do without violating? Ruling: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once a1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, a1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless a1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if a1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b).
ncaa:

Quote:
a.r. 113. Is it traveling when a player:
(3) gains control of the ball while on the playing court and then, because of momentum, rolls or slides, after which the player passes or starts a dribble before getting to his or her feet?
Ruling:
(3) no. The player may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a timeout. Once the player has the ball and is no longer sliding, he or she may not roll over. When flat on his or her back, the player may sit up without violating. When the player puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is the first to touch the ball, it also is traveling. When a player rises to his or her feet while holding the ball, it is traveling. When a player falls to one knee while holding he ball, it is traveling if the pivot foot moves.
(rule 4-68.6 and 4-68.1)
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association

Last edited by Camron Rust; Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 03:47pm.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 03:50pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach View Post
Matters not one iota. 'Gather' nor player control are part of this particular equation whose only meaningful element is momentum and the effects thereof. Stop overthinking these situations. It gives the appearance you lack basic rules knowledge.
Actually, it does. The timing of player control is absolutely relevant. If they don't have player control, there is no travel. If the player "gathers" before they land on the floor, it is a travel the instant they hit the floor. If they "gather" after being on the floor they are then allowed to slide/roll as far as momentum takes them.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 04:36pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Rock 'N Roll Is Here To Stay ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
If they "gather" after being on the floor they are then allowed to slide/roll as far as momentum takes them.
Got any citations for the "roll" part of your statement? I know that he can't roll over after he stops sliding, but how about some rule, or casebook play, that states he can roll due to momentum.

The casebook only talks about sliding.

4.44.5 situation b: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can a1 do without violating? Ruling: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once a1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, a1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless a1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if a1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b).

I'm not sure myself, so I would like some verification.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 06:18pm.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 08:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Got any citations for the "roll" part of your statement? I know that he can't roll over after he stops sliding, but how about some rule, or casebook play, that states he can roll due to momentum.
Yep...right in the case quoted...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The casebook only talks about sliding.

4.44.5 situation b: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can a1 do without violating? Ruling: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once a1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, a1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless a1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if a1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b).

I'm not sure myself, so I would like some verification.
It says that they can not roll over once they stop sliding....implying they can roll over before that. Otherwise, they wouldn't have qualified the restriction on rolling to apply to the time after they stop sliding.

Also, the case mentions a player diving and ending up on their back or stomach. I have never seen a person dive for something and end up on their back without rolling over to some degree.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association

Last edited by Camron Rust; Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 08:11pm.
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 10:59pm
AremRed
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach View Post
Stop overthinking these situations. It gives the appearance you lack basic rules knowledge.
Ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
It says that they can not roll over once they stop sliding....implying they can roll over before that. Otherwise, they wouldn't have qualified the restriction on rolling to apply to the time after they stop sliding.
Exactly, but I'll admit a lot of officials (myself included) would be hard pressed not to call a travel when a player is rolling around with possession while sliding....we all know how kindly coaches take to an obscure case book ruling when they see what looks like a clear violation. They don't understand ugly ≠ violation.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 11:35pm
I got a Basketball Jones!
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hunger
Posts: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
Exactly, but I'll admit a lot of officials (myself included) would be hard pressed not to call a travel when a player is rolling around with possession while sliding....we all know how kindly coaches take to an obscure case book ruling when they see what looks like a clear violation. They don't understand ugly ≠ violation.
Are you going to refrain from making other 'obscure' calls like backcourt, basket interference, illegal screen, or closely guarded when defenders switch, etc., all because you're concerned how coaches are gonna take it?
As to most coaches, they're all obscure rules. For us, they should all be top of mind as none of the rules are printed with disappearing ink in a secret section of the Rules or Case book.
__________________
Lah me..
(In honor of Jurassic Ref, R.I.P.)
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 11:40pm
AremRed
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach View Post
Are you going to refrain from making other 'obscure' calls like backcourt, basket interference, illegal screen, or closely guarded when defenders switch, etc., all because you're concerned how coaches are gonna take it?
Nope.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 16, 2014, 11:57am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Implication ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
... implying they can roll over before that.
You're probably right, but I still have a problem with relying on an implication as part of your citation.

Also, regarding the rollover after sliding, we've been told (no citations, sorry) for over thirty years that this had nothing to do with momentum, but rather, with gaining an advantage not afforded by the rules by rolling over and trying to keep the ball away from defenders.

I have had no problem holding my whistle for a sliding player, but, to be honest, I would be hard pressed not to sound my whistle for a rolling player, especially since the casebook play (the only citation that I can find for this situation) specifies sliding, not rolling.

If I allow rolling in a big play, at the end of the game, at the end of the season, with playoff implications, I would have a hard time defending myself to a coach, athletic director, my partner, or my assigner, with a caseplay book in their hands.

Maybe someone can come up with an old caseplay, and settle this, probably in your favor.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 16, 2014, 12:03pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Another Look At the Videotape ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
... a player is rolling around with possession while sliding ...
This post gave me pause to think.

Are we talking about a player who is simultaneously sliding, and rolling, due to momentum?

Or are we talking about a player who's momentum is causing him to simply roll without sliding?

I might have a legal play in the former, but a travel in the later.

How's that sound?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 16, 2014, 12:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
You're probably right, but I still have a problem with relying on an implication as part of your citation.

Also, regarding the rollover after sliding, we've been told (no citations, sorry) for over thirty years that this had nothing to do with momentum, but rather, with gaining an advantage not afforded by the rules by rolling over and trying to keep the ball away from defenders.

I have had no problem holding my whistle for a sliding player, but, to be honest, I would be hard pressed not to sound my whistle for a rolling player, especially since the casebook play (the only citation that I can find for this situation) specifies sliding, not rolling.

If I allow rolling in a big play, at the end of the game, at the end of the season, with playoff implications, I would have a hard time defending myself to a coach, athletic director, my partner, or my assigner, with a caseplay book in their hands.

Maybe someone can come up with an old caseplay, and settle this, probably in your favor.
Yes, I cant go as far as to say because drafters say you can't do it when the slide ends you can do it before. Argument could be made, which Billy is making, that this case play says "slide" and that's what it addresses. Literal interpretation.

Could also say drafters knew about rolling cause addressed it After momentum stopped. If they wanted player be able to roll during momentum they could have said so. Like they do in NCAA. I couldn't cite this case play to support allowing rolling in a high school game. Imo

Last edited by BigCat; Sun Nov 16, 2014 at 12:25pm.
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 16, 2014, 04:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Yep...right in the case quoted...


It says that they can not roll over once they stop sliding....implying they can roll over before that. Otherwise, they wouldn't have qualified the restriction on rolling to apply to the time after they stop sliding.

Also, the case mentions a player diving and ending up on their back or stomach. I have never seen a person dive for something and end up on their back without rolling over to some degree.
After further review I don't think rolling due to momentum is involved in any way in this play because the play tells us to assume A1 has the ball and is SLIDING.
Then asks "what can he do without violating?" The entire assumption involved is that the player is holding the ball sliding on his back or stomach. What can he do?

Answer: shoot, pass, dribble timeout. It then says in a sort of "by the way fashion". When stopped sliding he can sit up but not roll. They are just telling us what A1 can and can't do once he stops SLIDING. I don't feel by that statement they are saying/implying he can roll over while sliding. (It is not one of the four things mentioned) thx

I also don't think it rules out the roll caused by momentum. It just isn't addressed because the whole play assumes only a slide. Thx
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 16, 2014, 04:56pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
After further review I don't think rolling due to momentum is involved in any way in this play because the play tells us to assume A1 has the ball and is SLIDING.
Then asks "what can he do without violating?" The entire assumption involved is that the player is holding the ball sliding on his back or stomach. What can he do?

Answer: shoot, pass, dribble timeout. It then says in a sort of "by the way fashion". When stopped sliding he can sit up but not roll. They are just telling us what A1 can and can't do once he stops SLIDING. I don't feel by that statement they are saying/implying he can roll over while sliding. (It is not one of the four things mentioned) thx

I also don't think it rules out the roll caused by momentum. It just isn't addressed because the whole play assumes only a slide. Thx
This is a case play, not a rule. Read it for concepts. They're telling us they want players to go after a loose ball. Again, the qualification about what they can do after they stop sliding IS indirectly a statement on what then can do before they stop sliding. They're drawing a distinction between the TYPES of things allowed due to the momentum of the dive and deliberate movement that is not part of the dive.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Great start to my HS season jdmara Baseball 7 Wed May 27, 2009 08:51am
Help with the start of my season umpire99 Baseball 12 Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:38pm
interesting start to the season so far cowbyfan1 Baseball 6 Fri Mar 11, 2005 08:26am
Unfortuante start to the season... whistleone Basketball 6 Fri Oct 22, 2004 08:19am
When does your season start? BktBallRef Basketball 15 Sat Oct 28, 2000 03:26pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:21pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1