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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 11:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kstiles99 View Post
Agreed, but this is my first year as an official... And I'm 16 :/

Coaches do not have any problems giving me the business up and down the court. If I T 'em for this every time, there won't be any coaches on the floor, and my assignors will take notice, give me grief, and probably pull my assignments.

On the other hand, If I let bench personnel walk all over me, my games quickly turn to crap. It's hard being a rookie
Curious, are you working high school?

Regardless, don't let them ride you. I promise you it won't take as many technical fouls as you think.

Give a quick warning, "coach that's enough."
If/when he continues, whack.
Next game, same thing.

You'll find that most coaches will get it and adjust before you have to issue a 2nd T. Be consistent, be firm. You'll eventually learn to converse with them and defuse situations; but in the mean time, the T works great to help you focus on the game.

When you give a T, listen to your partner's feedback after the game or at half time, learn from it if you can. Some partners will give you stupid feedback: smile and nod, brain dump it later.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 11:51am
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Originally Posted by kstiles99 View Post
Well, on this particular day, I worked 4 games. This was the last game of the night and according to the crowd and the coaches that were waiting for their games to start, I was sucking. So naturally, near the end of my last game of the day, I'm worn out. Yes these we're two different teams with two coaches both as energetic and wild as could be toward their players and my partner and I. But I didnt have problems with either HC. This was probably just an AC with anger issues....
One of the reasons I started this thread was to hear opinions of giving technicals in scrimmages and preseason. Assignors seem to not like it. Veterans tell us it's a bad idea.. But it's what an official would do in a regular contest. Why is there a difference between a T in a scrimmage vs. a T in a game?

And to settle it, no thiese games did not pay, but guess who got free pizza before he got ran out of the gym
As others have noted, there are other ways of dealing with the situation in scrimmages.
1. You can call the T (it's not as big a deterrent in these games, though).
2. You can stop the game, walk over to the HC and calmly explain that he needs to either control or remove his AC if this game is going to continue with your assistance.

In this case, I would have said it loud enough to embarrass the AC, but not yelling. Both benches would have heard it, and my voice carries well enough that most of the gym would have heard it as well.

The T doesn't have the same impact because no one really cares who wins, the coaches are looking for game simulations. Most of these "games" won't even shoot the free throws anyway.

No, you don't take the crap from the bench, ESPECIALLY when you're working for free. But there are more effective ways to deal with it. What you did worked, so I wouldn't sweat it too much.

If your local feedback is that there are other ways to deal with it, I hope they've provided alternative options rather than just saying, "I wouldn't have done that in a scrimmage."
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 02:08pm
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Originally Posted by Coach Bill View Post
What was the format of your scrimmage? Exact same rules as a regular game (4 quarters, shoot 1-and-1 at 7 fouls in half, etc...)?

Also - u never answered my previous question. U said the team A was upset because u called the foul on A2 instead of A1. Did u mean to say B2? Or, did they think u had the wrong guy on team A?
Yes that's exactly how these games were and I should say they were more complex than your average scrimmage. Our association assigned us these scrimmages to mimic regular games, because they were our last scrimmages before the regular season. So our assignors informed the coaches of this and tried to make these scrimmages as close to regular games as possible.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 02:11pm
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Thank you Adam, and let me just say, my partner was one of those guys you ask to not work with in the future :/
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 09:14pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I still have not gotten an answer yet to this question. Are these regular games or game like situations cloaked in a pre-season event? Because a scrimmage here is a inter-squad contest which is often very informal and not very heated. The only time I have ever thought of giving a T in any of these type of games, was as a gag that the coaches were in on the gag. I cannot even imagine a coach getting that upset over any call. And if they got upset, a T would not come to mind.

Also, some pay. Others do not. And usually we bring multiple officials to them so the guys can work and get to see ball they normally might not see. We use these as training opportunities more than anything. That is why I cannot understand a coach getting that upset over all call.

Peace
\

Our scrimmages are not paid. Mandated to do at least 1 and they are assigned. They are with 2 or maybe 3 schools. No fouls counted. If we shoot FTs at all, it will be 1 shot on a shooting foul. Do not keep score. 4 officials rotating in. 6 quarters.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 15, 2014, 11:31pm
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Originally Posted by Mregor View Post
\

Our scrimmages are not paid. Mandated to do at least 1 and they are assigned. They are with 2 or maybe 3 schools. No fouls counted. If we shoot FTs at all, it will be 1 shot on a shooting foul. Do not keep score. 4 officials rotating in. 6 quarters.
Whether a team keeps score is more on the coach and what they want out of the scrimmage. But it is not unusual that we shoot every FT and play normally without the fouls being kept.

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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 24, 2014, 11:59am
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Originally Posted by johnny d View Post
It is one thing to willing volunteer your time. It is a something significantly different for the schools, association, or assignor to expect or demand people donate their time.
Currently listening to the online state clinic. They have specific regulations for scrimmages.

Per state rules, officials are forbidden from being paid to work scrimmages or jamborees (3 or more teams); we may only receive a minimal travel fee. Each school is allowed participate in a max of 2 scrimmages/jamborees.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 24, 2014, 12:04pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Currently listening to the online state clinic. They have specific regulations for scrimmages.

Per state rules, officials are forbidden from being paid to work scrimmages or jamborees (3 or more teams); we may only receive a minimal travel fee. Each school is allowed participate in a max of 2 scrimmages/jamborees.
We are not under those regulations here. I worked Friday at a scrimmage near my house and was paid in cash on the spot. But again this is what makes this place very interesting is to hear how things are done very differently.

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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 24, 2014, 01:55pm
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Originally Posted by kstiles99 View Post
Team A's assistant coach jumps out of seat going beserck,
All I need to know in this story is the AC....had this happen in a BV jamboree two weeks ago minus the sunglasses. Like most on here I HATE having to give T's during jamboree type games but I didn't want to set a precedence of what I would accept later in the year. Sure enough, I get that team's home opener and the AC was a complete gentleman (even though they lost a close game). Either way, I have a very short leash with ACs...

Last edited by egj13; Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 02:00pm.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 24, 2014, 02:07pm
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In my association, if we want to get assignments, we must work scrimmages. If we want to work post season, we must accumulate a certain number of points and we can get points for working scrimmages (2 max points). Most of us work an average of 3 scrimmages - I worked 4 this season. We don't get paid - the school pays the association what they would typically pay us. The format is typically 2 to 4 schools participate and they have us (usually 5-6 people are assigned to a court) for up to 3 hours. They can do whatever they want during that time: play a full game, just quarters, game situations...whatever they choose. It's a way for everyone to get ready for the season. People gripe about it, but it's really not that big of a deal.

Coaches are almost always well behaved - they worry about their players and they rarely worry about the officiating. Sometimes when a rookie makes mistakes or someone clearly is in over their heads, they get a little frustrated, but I've never seen anyone get really upset during a scrimmage.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 24, 2014, 03:13pm
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Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
they have us (usually 5-6 people are assigned to a court) for up to 3 hours. People gripe about it, but it's really not that big of a deal.
Up to 3 hrs. each time and you have to do a minimum of 2 of them. Of course people gripe about it, most people's time is worth something. 6+ hrs. of free officiating is absolutely ridiculous. Even for people who place little to no value on their time, giving up family/personal time is a cost as well. If the schools cannot afford to pay officials to have a scrimmage, than they don't need to play any scrimmages or they can have their coaches officiate. We have lots of ways available to us to prepare for the season, working for free is not one of them!
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 24, 2014, 03:25pm
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Originally Posted by johnny d View Post
Up to 3 hrs. each time and you have to do a minimum of 2 of them. Of course people gripe about it, most people's time is worth something. 6+ hrs. of free officiating is absolutely ridiculous. Even for people who place little to no value on their time, giving up family/personal time is a cost as well. If the schools cannot afford to pay officials to have a scrimmage, than they don't need to play any scrimmages or they can have their coaches officiate. We have lots of ways available to us to prepare for the season, working for free is not one of them!
I understand what you're saying. We have very little bargaining power, though. If we want to be assigned (decent) games, we better work our scrimmages. And if we want to work the playoffs, we better work the scrimmages. Here in Texas, districts/schools and coaches have way more power than they should. It's a massive conflict of interest, but it's the way it is. The association is just as focused on pleasing the schools and coaches as it is in pleasing the officials, because the districts can choose which associations they use. And coaches can choose which officials they want (or don't want) when it comes to district play and playoffs.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 24, 2014, 06:44pm
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Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
I understand what you're saying. We have very little bargaining power, though. If we want to be assigned (decent) games, we better work our scrimmages. And if we want to work the playoffs, we better work the scrimmages. Here in Texas, districts/schools and coaches have way more power than they should. It's a massive conflict of interest, but it's the way it is. The association is just as focused on pleasing the schools and coaches as it is in pleasing the officials, because the districts can choose which associations they use. And coaches can choose which officials they want (or don't want) when it comes to district play and playoffs.


How is this about the power of the schools if, as you said in your prior post, the schools are paying the game fee to the assoication rather than you? Sounds like this is, more or less, association dues, not something the schools are dictating.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 24, 2014, 08:53pm
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Originally Posted by kstiles99 View Post
Agreed, but this is my first year as an official... And I'm 16 :/

Coaches do not have any problems giving me the business up and down the court. If I T 'em for this every time, there won't be any coaches on the floor, and my assignors will take notice, give me grief, and probably pull my assignments.

On the other hand, If I let bench personnel walk all over me, my games quickly turn to crap. It's hard being a rookie
It's hard to be 16 and trying to officiate HS games. Many adults have trouble respecting someone of that age and having the teenager in the role of the authority figure.

My opinion is that people still in HS should only work summerball or recreational leagues because of these aspects as well as the problem with being an independent contractor at that age.

In my years of officiating, I've had to T coaches for throwing the following items: clipboard, water bottle, towel, pen, jacket, and the game ball.
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Old Mon Nov 24, 2014, 08:57pm
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Originally Posted by grunewar View Post
We are "required to work ~ 4 free scrimmages, and I don't mind it one bit.

I enjoy prepping for the season and make my $ later in the year.

Say what you will.

PS - I get to pick my games/schools and don't have to travel far. I truly love my avocation.
Please explain how an independent contractor can be "required" to work anything, especially for free.
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