Correctable Error

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

After much thought, I have decided that A1 should attempt his FTs in Team A's Second Half Basket because the CE was discovered during the Second Half.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by billyu2

Mark, you missed the point. I said my concern is which quarter will the attempted free throws be a part of. (yes, it could create a concern regarding # of quarters played later) but for right now, which quarter will the free throws be a part of? You and your partners return to the court before intermission is over and the scorer informs you A10 should have received a one and one just before the end of the second quarter. You inform the scorer and the coaches we have a correctable error and that A10 will receive his merited free throws. The scorer asks you- in which quarter do I record the free throws, the 2nd or 3rd? And you say . . .?

BillyU2:

Read what I said above.

MTD, Sr.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BillyU2:

Read what I said above.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, I believe you are referring to Bob's scenario where the 3rd period has started when you are informed but the error is still correctable. Please refer to my scenario where you are informed during intermission. Thanks.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Mark, I believe you are referring to Bob's scenario where the 3rd period has started when you are informed but the error is still correctable. Please refer to my scenario where you are informed during intermission. Thanks.

If the CE is discovered during Half Time attempt the FTs at the First Half Basket because the Second Half has not started.

MTD, Sr.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

If the CE is discovered during Half Time attempt the FTs at the First Half Basket because the Second Half has not started.

MTD, Sr.

Perfect.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

If the CE is discovered during Half Time attempt the FTs at the First Half Basket because the Second Half has not started.

MTD, Sr.

If you're actually concerned about the number of quarters someone plays, which isn't any part of the rules we should be concerned with

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by OKREF

If you're actually concerned about the number of quarters someone plays, which isn't any part of the rules we should be concerned with

Plus, I would certainly hope that the OHSAA would recognize the situation and NOT issue any penalty for this specific type of participation even if it was recorded in the "6th quarter"

[billyu2]

If discovered during the contest it is a team technical. If discovered after the contest there is no penalty.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by billyu2

If discovered during the contest it is a team technical. If discovered after the contest there is no penalty.

It is a TF charged to the Team and not the Player. The TF counts towards the Team's total for the Half.

While I am sure that most H.S. games in the U.S. are same gender JV/VAR DHs, here in Ohio we sometimes have same gender FR/JV/VAR THs. As far as I can remember (1965-66 school when I was a FR in H.S.) the OhioHSAA has had a quarters per day rule which allowed a player to play in both games of a JV/VAR DH or all three games of a FR/JV/VAR TH al long as the number of quarters played for all two or all three games did not exceed the OhioHSAA limit for quarters in a day.

I am not going to go into detail with the history of the OhioHSAA rule because it has changed a couple of times over the years but suffice to say the game officials only responsibilities with regard to the rule are to enforce the penalty when the player in question is PLAYING in his/her 6th or more quarter of the day. I should add that once the quarter in which a player has participated for his 5th quarter of the day, has ended, that player is not considered a "disqualified" player for the remainder of the game. "Disqualified" in this context is not the same as the Rules Book definition of disqualified because the OhioHSAA penalty for playing in a 6th quarter in a day is just removal from the game and a TF charged to the player's team.

MTD, Sr.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It is a TF charged to the Team and not the Player. The TF counts towards the Team's total for the Half.

While I am sure that most H.S. games in the U.S. are same gender JV/VAR DHs, here in Ohio we sometimes have same gender FR/JV/VAR THs. As far as I can remember (1965-66 school when I was a FR in H.S.) the OhioHSAA has had a quarters per day rule which allowed a player to play in both games of a JV/VAR DH or all three games of a FR/JV/VAR TH al long as the number of quarters played for all two or all three games did not exceed the OhioHSAA limit for quarters in a day.

I am not going to go into detail with the history of the OhioHSAA rule because it has changed a couple of times over the years but suffice to say the game officials only responsibilities with regard to the rule are to enforce the penalty when the player in question is PLAYING in his/her 6th or more quarter of the day. I should add that once the quarter in which a player has participated for his 5th quarter of the day, has ended, that player is not considered a "disqualified" player for the remainder of the game. "Disqualified" in this context is not the same as the Rules Book definition of disqualified because the OhioHSAA penalty for playing in a 6th quarter in a day is just removal from the game and a TF charged to the player's team.

MTD, Sr.

So, A1 is fouled near the end of Quarter 2, and should shoot 1&1. The free throws are not administered until after halftime. A1 is identified as the correct shooter.
As A1 goes to the line to shoot the 1&1, a) prior to the throw-in to start the 3rd quarter, or b) after the throw-in to start the 3rd quarter, the scorekeeper informs the R that A1 has already played in 6 quarters, and asks whether A1 shooting the 1&1 will constitute participation in a 7th quarter, and thus merit a T, and consequently 2 free throws and a throw-in for team B.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

So, A1 is fouled near the end of Quarter 2, and should shoot 1&1. The free throws are not administered until after halftime. A1 is identified as the correct shooter.
As A1 goes to the line to shoot the 1&1, a) prior to the throw-in to start the 3rd quarter, or b) after the throw-in to start the 3rd quarter, the scorekeeper informs the R that A1 has already played in 6 quarters, and asks whether A1 shooting the 1&1 will constitute participation in a 7th quarter, and thus merit a T, and consequently 2 free throws and a throw-in for team B.

If you're operating in the crazy world where officials are responsible for enforcing participation limits, then I would tell the score keeper to record teh points in the quarter in which they should have been taken.

In my world, I don't care, and I'm not issuing an technical fouls.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by adam

if you're operating in the crazy world where officials are responsible for enforcing participation limits, then i would tell the score keeper to record teh points in the quarter in which they should have been taken.

In my world, i don't care, and i'm not issuing an technical fouls.

yep.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

So, A1 is fouled near the end of Quarter 2, and should shoot 1&1. The free throws are not administered until after halftime. A1 is identified as the correct shooter.
As A1 goes to the line to shoot the 1&1, a) prior to the throw-in to start the 3rd quarter, or b) after the throw-in to start the 3rd quarter, the scorekeeper informs the R that A1 has already played in 6 quarters, and asks whether A1 shooting the 1&1 will constitute participation in a 7th quarter, and thus merit a T, and consequently 2 free throws and a throw-in for team B.

Your state has documented by-laws that mandate a Technical be called in such a situation?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

So, A1 is fouled near the end of Quarter 2, and should shoot 1&1. The free throws are not administered until after halftime. A1 is identified as the correct shooter.
As A1 goes to the line to shoot the 1&1, a) prior to the throw-in to start the 3rd quarter, or b) after the throw-in to start the 3rd quarter, the scorekeeper informs the R that A1 has already played in 6 quarters, and asks whether A1 shooting the 1&1 will constitute participation in a 7th quarter, and thus merit a T, and consequently 2 free throws and a throw-in for team B.

As far as OhioHSAA is concerned:

Situation #1: The CE is discovered prior to the start of the Second Half; this means the CE was discovered in the First Half. The Scorer discovers, BEFORE the ball has been made Live for A1's first FT attempt, that A1 has already participated in six quarters for the day and notifies the Game Officials . There is no Penalty because the infraction was discovered while A1 was not in the game. The Game Officials notify A1's HC of A1's situation and a Team A player who is not currently in the game will attempt A1's FTs.

It should be noted that if the Scorer discovers that A1 is participating in his sixth quarter after the ball has been made Live for his first FT attempt then the penalty for participating in more that five quarters in a day must be enforced. Using the NFHS (and NCAA) protocol for a Disqualified Player that is discovered while participating in the game.

Situation #2: The CE is discovered during the Second Half and before the time limit to correct the CE has expired. We now have multiple possibilities.

a) A1 was participating at the time the CE was discovered. Team A is charged with a TF for A1's illegal participation. A1's replacement attempts A1's FTs. Team B is then awarded two FTs for the Team A's TF and the all for a Throw-in at the Division Line opposite the Table.

b) A1 was NOT participating at the time the CE was discovered. A1's FTs are attempted by one of the five Team A players participating in the game at the time the CE was discovered. There is no penalty charged to Team A because A1 has participated in more that five quarters for the day.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Adam

If you're operating in the crazy world where officials are responsible for enforcing participation limits, then I would tell the score keeper to record teh points in the quarter in which they should have been taken.

In my world, I don't care, and I'm not issuing an technical fouls.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

yep.

I think everybody is getting their knickers in a twist for no reason.

1) The Game Officials do not keep track of a player's quarters. The Scorer keeps track just like he/she would keep track of a player's PFs and TFs.

2) The Scorer only notifies the Game Officials when a player is actually participating in his/her sixth quarter, and then and only then is the penalty is enforced.

3) If the infraction is discovered while the player is not participating: No harm; no foul.

4) I graduated from H.S. in 1969. Prior to my graduating from H.S. I cannot remember ever participating or watching a game where a player was discovered playing after exceeding the quarters in a day rule.

5) My H.S. HC's oldest son and I did all of his scouting the last two years he coached (1969-70 and 1970-71) and I cannot remember ever watching a game where a player was discovered playing after exceeding the quarters in a day rule.

6) I started officiating basketball in 1971-72 and can honestly say that I have never had this situation occur in any the H.S. games that I have officiated in Ohio and have never had a fellow official who had it happen in one of his/her games. It is a rule that is there and the schools do a very good job of tracking a player's quarters. I am sure that it has no doubt happened but it is a very rare occurrence.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Your state has documented by-laws that mandate a Technical be called in such a situation?

BNR:

Yes. But only if the infraction is discovered while the player is participating. There is not penalty if the infraction is discovered when the player is not participating.

More importantly, why would we (the Game Officials) enforce such a rule if there was no OhioHSAA documentation of such a rule.

MTD, Sr.