Correctable Error

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

We have started to discuss two different, but yet the same, plays in this thread.

1) The rule with regard to OT being an extension of the Fourth Quarter and the Second Half applies to the counting of Team Fouls and does not the effect the disposition of CEs.

2) Therefore whether the CE occurred with five seconds left in the: a) Second Quarter/First Half, b) Fourth Quarter/Second Half, or c) any OT period, the FTs are part of the Period in which the CE occurred and in the case of (2a) the FTs are attempted at Team A's Basket in the Second Quarter/First Half. Once the FTS are attempted the next Period can begin.

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

We have started to discuss two different, but yet the same, plays in this thread.

1) The rule with regard to OT being an extension of the Fourth Quarter and the Second Half applies to the counting of Team Fouls and does not the effect the disposition of CEs.

2) Therefore whether the CE occurred with five seconds left in the: a) Second Quarter/First Half, b) Fourth Quarter/Second Half, or c) any OT period, the FTs are part of the Period in which the CE occurred and in the case of (2a) the FTs are attempted at Team A's Basket in the Second Quarter/First Half. Once the FTS are attempted the next Period can begin.

MTD, Sr.

So, foul right at the buzzer ending the second quarter. Should be the 7th, but is thought to be the 6th.

The third quarter starts, teams go back and forth for a while not scoring, then the ball I tipped out of bounds (first dead ball of the half). table buzzes -- hey, we should have shot FTs at the end of the last quarter.

It's still correctable.

You're shooting them at the first half basket?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

So, foul right at the buzzer ending the second quarter. Should be the 7th, but is thought to be the 6th.

The third quarter starts, teams go back and forth for a while not scoring, then the ball I tipped out of bounds (first dead ball of the half). table buzzes -- hey, we should have shot FTs at the end of the last quarter.

It's still correctable.

You're shooting them at the first half basket?

Bob:

As weird as it sounds, yes.

MTD, Sr.

[BryanV21]

It seems that the question you have to ask is "what basket was the team shooting at at the time of the error?" And the answer to that will give you the answer to the question of what basket to shoot the free throw(s) at.

As someone already pointed out, when it comes to the players, coaches, fans, and the vast majority of people, they either don't know or don't care... just shoot 'em.

But when it comes to other refs and especially supervisors/observers, doing it right does matter.

So can anybody say for sure? Seems as though we have highly regarded officials answering differently.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

It seems that the question you have to ask is "what basket was the team shooting at at the time of the error?" And the answer to that will give you the answer to the question of what basket to shoot the free throw(s) at.

As someone already pointed out, when it comes to the players, coaches, fans, and the vast majority of people, they either don't know or don't care... just shoot 'em.

But when it comes to other refs and especially supervisors/observers, doing it right does matter.

So can anybody say for sure? Seems as though we have highly regarded officials answering differently.

And this why even most officials who are there aren't going to care where you shot the FTs. The answer is difficult enough to find, the focus will be on the itself in any post-game discussions among refs.

[Robert E. Harrison]

Is this the reason for the rule that states that the points for a free throw go to the shooters team, no matter which basket is used (assuming no correction is made of course)

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

It seems that the question you have to ask is "what basket was the team shooting at at the time of the error?" And the answer to that will give you the answer to the question of what basket to shoot the free throw(s) at.

As someone already pointed out, when it comes to the players, coaches, fans, and the vast majority of people, they either don't know or don't care... just shoot 'em.

But when it comes to other refs and especially supervisors/observers, doing it right does matter.

So can anybody say for sure? Seems as though we have highly regarded officials answering differently.

I can honestly say my supervisor, coordinator, or evaluator wouldn't care which end they were shot on. Is it a correctable error and was it corrected. That's all that really matters. Is this situation really a nit that needs to be picked?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Bob:

As weird as it sounds, yes.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

So, foul right at the buzzer ending the second quarter. Should be the 7th, but is thought to be the 6th.

The third quarter starts, teams go back and forth for a while not scoring, then the ball I tipped out of bounds (first dead ball of the half). table buzzes -- hey, we should have shot FTs at the end of the last quarter.

It's still correctable.

You're shooting them at the first half basket?

Bob:

I thought about the answer I gave you and I believe that by rule we have to attempt the FTs at the Team A's First Half Basket. That said, if I were evaluating the game officials in such a game I would not ding them if they did not attempt the FTs at the First Half Basket. But, I believe that Team B's HC would have a good case to claim that attempting them at Team A's Second Half Basket would be a CE for attempting the FTs at the wrong basket. In the first case the game officials will look silly, and in the second case they could be creating a second CE. I guess this is a question that the NFHS and NCAA "knuckle heads" will have to sort out.

In other words: It is six of one and half dozen of the other.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I can honestly say my supervisor, coordinator, or evaluator wouldn't care which end they were shot on. Is it a correctable error and was it corrected. That's all that really matters. Is this situation really a nit that needs to be picked?

OKREF:

Read my post just above this one. I agree with your analysis.

MTD, Sr.

[billyu2]

Again, IMO, at which basket the FT's are attempted is not such an important issue. My concern is in which quarter are these FT's going to be a part of? If the attempts are going to be recorded as part of the third quarter, this could put the individual and the team at a disadvantage and could affect the outcome of the game. In Ohio, we have a 5 qtr. maximum/day rule. What if A10 plays 3 quarters in the JV game, enters the varsity game just before halftime, and happens to be the player involved in the CE? Assume the coach does not plan to play him in the 3rd quarter but now we are informed of the CE. A10 attempts his merited free throws. If the attempts are recorded as part of the third quarter it would stand to reason that he participated in the quarter and would be charged, through no fault of his own, with his fifth and final quarter. I think it would be wise to have the attempts recorded as part of the second quarter when the error actually occurred. If the officials decide to shoot at the original basket that's fine with me, or if the 3rd quarter already started (Bob's scenario) and the officials say we're going to shoot here- that would be fine as well.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

After much thought, I have decided that A1 should attempt his FTs in Team A's Second Half Basket because the CE was discovered during the Second Half.

MTD, Sr.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Again, IMO, at which basket the FT's are attempted is not such an important issue. My concern is in which quarter are these FT's going to be a part of? If the attempts are going to be recorded as part of the third quarter, this could put the individual and the team at a disadvantage and could affect the outcome of the game. In Ohio, we have a 5 qtr. maximum/day rule. What if A10 plays 3 quarters in the JV game, enters the varsity game just before halftime, and happens to be the player involved in the CE? Assume the coach does not plan to play him in the 3rd quarter but now we are informed of the CE. A10 attempts his merited free throws. If the attempts are recorded as part of the third quarter it would stand to reason that he participated in the quarter and would be charged, through no fault of his own, with his fifth and final quarter. I think it would be wise to have the attempts recorded as part of the second quarter when the error actually occurred. If the officials decide to shoot at the original basket that's fine with me, or if the 3rd quarter already started (Bob's scenario) and the officials say we're going to shoot here- that would be fine as well.

I couldn't care less about how many quarters someone plays. That has no bearing on any decision I would make during a game.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Again, IMO, at which basket the FT's are attempted is not such an important issue. My concern is in which quarter are these FT's going to be a part of? If the attempts are going to be recorded as part of the third quarter, this could put the individual and the team at a disadvantage and could affect the outcome of the game. In Ohio, we have a 5 qtr. maximum/day rule. What if A10 plays 3 quarters in the JV game, enters the varsity game just before halftime, and happens to be the player involved in the CE? Assume the coach does not plan to play him in the 3rd quarter but now we are informed of the CE. A10 attempts his merited free throws. If the attempts are recorded as part of the third quarter it would stand to reason that he participated in the quarter and would be charged, through no fault of his own, with his fifth and final quarter. I think it would be wise to have the attempts recorded as part of the second quarter when the error actually occurred. If the officials decide to shoot at the original basket that's fine with me, or if the 3rd quarter already started (Bob's scenario) and the officials say we're going to shoot here- that would be fine as well.

BillyU2:

I have been an OhioHSAA registered basketball official for 44 years. Do not bother yourself with the number of quarters that a player has played.

The only time we (OhioHSAA officials) are concerned about the number of quarters a player has played is when the Scorer informs us: a) that a player is playing in his 6th quarter or b) a player who has played in 5 quarters has reported to the Scorer to re-enter the game and it will be his 6th quarter of play.

MTD, Sr.

[BryanV21]

I know it doesn't matter where the free throws are attempted, but there has to be a right answer, and I'd rather know the right answer than to shrug my shoulders if I were ever asked.

Call me OCD.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BillyU2:

I have been an OhioHSAA registered basketball official for 44 years. Do not bother yourself with the number of quarters that a player has played.

The only time we (OhioHSAA officials) are concerned about the number of quarters a player has played is when the Scorer informs us: a) that a player is playing in his 6th quarter or b) a player who has played in 5 quarters has reported to the Scorer to re-enter the game and it will be his 6th quarter of play.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, you missed the point. I said my concern is which quarter will the attempted free throws be a part of. (yes, it could create a concern regarding # of quarters played later) but for right now, which quarter will the free throws be a part of? You and your partners return to the court before intermission is over and the scorer informs you A10 should have received a one and one just before the end of the second quarter. You inform the scorer and the coaches we have a correctable error and that A10 will receive his merited free throws. The scorer asks you- in which quarter do I record the free throws, the 2nd or 3rd? And you say . . .?