Getting picked up very young

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*Very astute point Billy Macs. And that post proved my initial point: the days of working one's way up by the traditional route will burn up a LOT of your useful and optimal reffing time. No need to labor incessantly at the lower ranks and be content with watching varsity officials who are past their prime get games over you when you do not even get a chance especially after paying dues etc..for years. Now, granted you may have to travel further out in the district to get those games--but hey my Mother never said it was going to be easy

Honestly, I do not think that was ever really the case. I have heard of a lot of people getting college games and the supervisors did not care if you were working anything before. That sounds more like what used to say, but never was the case.

Just look at the careers of some of the top buys that have been working D1 for 20 or 30 years and many of them did not even work a HS varsity game before they worked a college game. I can think of a couple of people that made that clear in Referee Magazine when they talked about their college or pro careers.

Peace

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*BryanVs, I cannot disagree with that point; however, prospective refs who decide/attempt to go the "fast-track" route generally acquire "experience" as a result of working the practices and games of their relevant competition level. Hey don't get me wrong, I realize there are a wealth of "non-curricular" type of experiences that can be (must be obtained) towards becoming an elite ref (such as how to get along with obstinate crew partners, how to manage confrontational coaches, how even to manage your own psychological stance in order to endure the immense challenge of reffing a live game, etc...). Yet, for the most part these are, shall I say, tangential issues. The key aspects are: knowing the relevant rules, getting self in good position to make calls, and managing the game--all of which can be learned by attending a relevant camp/clinic and identifying the relevant assignors.

1. Why is experience in quotes?

2. Help me understand here: You think working practices and games of their relevant competition level will give an official enough "experience" to work college games if they know the rules, how to get in the right spot, etc?

3. Ballpark...How many practices and games do you think would be needed to learn those "tangential issues" so that he or she could couple them with the key aspects you identified and be in a good position to get picked up?

[justacoach]

I will simply say that our local HS association wanted to assign my #1 son to a preseason JV-G scrimmage the year he was on staff for a D1 conference and the NBA D-league. I am not averse to the idea you should create your own advancement opportunity and not be dependent on guidance or encouragement from the traditional groups. It is not in their interest to have you advance beyond their span of control.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

Well Bad news Referee, I did not intend to over-simplify the vocational progression but rather to inform the OP that there is no need to be "baffled" by a 19 y.o reffing games when the players are 20+ yrs old (or older). To emphasize that the main point of my post was that Officiating has become so Standardized that one can enter the vocation without having to submit their time and effort in the classical approach towards "moving up". Really, a ref who wants to 'move up' could really waste a lot of their effective years/prime time by going the classical route. Which may not even pan out.
Pay for the camps, get the instruction from relevant clinicians, and meet assignors, impress them with practice games---and one can "move up". Now, granted you may have to travel further to get prime time games (e.g., >40 miles to get a varsity game or college level game) once you are in the network. This is the modern era way to move up in the Officiating vocation.
In my career I've seen folks who did 3rd grade girls for the ymca, then in 2 yrs they were doing hi-level JUCO games in Garden City,KS and Hutchinson, KS.

Apparently you didn't pay attention to my very first response:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You do not need to be part of a HS association to be picked up by a college supervisor. I have a young buddy of mine who got picked up by a D3 supervisor after only 1 season of HS officiating; believe he was 22 at the time.

There is a forum member whose son got picked up in college ball when he was 20 and attending university.

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by justacoach

I will simply say that our local HS association wanted to assign my #1 son to a preseason JV-G scrimmage the year he was on staff for a D1 conference and the NBA D-league. I am not averse to the idea you should create your own advancement opportunity and not be dependent on guidance or encouragement from the traditional groups. It is not in their interest to have you advance beyond their span of control.

*Interesting and insightful perspective. When you said that such traditional groups do not have a vested interest in you "advancing beyond their span of control [on you]"...Me like!

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Apparently you didn't pay attention to my very first response:

ok

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*Interesting and insightful perspective. When you said that such traditional groups do not have a vested interest in you "advancing beyond their span of control [on you]"...Me like!

That is not limited to young officials. I'm intimately familiar with an older official who swam through those same murky waters.

[Rich]

I moved a lot from my first year of officiating (1987) till I settled in at my current location 12 years ago.

I was terrible as an 18 year old, I'm sure. I just didn't fall into the right group and I was in college and it was just beer money. I worked my first varsity game my junior year of college, but I still wasn't very good.

Then I moved to grad school. Took me a season and a half to get promoted to varsity.

Moved again. Worked a full varsity schedule, but knew I was only staying for one season.

Moved again.

Moved again.

Moved again.

I've seen every kind of group, from the one who would watch you work for a few minutes and assign you like a veteran to those who had artificial rules in place that would have Earl Strom working 3+ years of JV girls.

Thankfully I moved to a place where I can direct my own HS schedule. I don't work EVERY conference in the area, but I end up with more games than I plan on working every season. I went to camps, my postseason assignments improved - last year I worked state -- 27 years and 6 states in. I'm a HS official for life. I work college football and college baseball and I still see myself as a HS guy first and foremost.

Now that I assign, I run into all kinds of officials. Guys who ask me what the game pays before I get a word out. Guys who are 18 and already think they're NBA-quality officials. Guys who are 40 year vets who get games who I won't hire based on what I see of them.

Until you remove people from the equation, this won't change.

And if I was young, pretty, and ran like a gazelle, I'd be looking to escape to NCAA or pro basketball as quickly as I could.

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by Rooster

1. Why is experience in quotes?

*To distinguish context-specific experience from generalized experience.

2. Help me understand here: You think working practices and games of their relevant competition level will give an official enough "experience" to work college games if they know the rules, how to get in the right spot, etc?

* By working an active combination of jamborees, scrimmages, practices, and games at your desired level of officiating vocation, you will eventually and assuredly acquire the acumen to become a satisfactory ref at that chosen level.

3. Ballpark...How many practices and games do you think would be needed to learn those "tangential issues" so that he or she could couple them with the key aspects you identified and be in a good position to get picked up?

*At best I can offer here is 2 to 5 years. There is a book called "The Tipping Point" that indicates that the average human needs 3500 to 5000 hours of practice, experience, feedback/evaluation on a task to transition from complete novice to satisfactory performer. So, I think that is a good baseline to begin with.

Are we good here?

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*At best I can offer here is 2 to 5 years. There is a book called "The Tipping Point" that indicates that the average human needs 3500 to 5000 hours of practice, experience, feedback/evaluation on a task to transition from complete novice to satisfactory performer. So, I think that is a good baseline to begin with.

Are we good here?

Yep. Thanks for expanding.

[JRutledge]

We have a lot of young officials that think they should after a year work a full varsity schedule, but cannot handle a low-level varsity game already. HS and college in almost every case has nothing to do with each other. Just like working the NBA or pro ball has nothing to do with what you accomplished at the lower levels. It actually never was apart of the process unless you just happened to work college for someone that assigned some high school. And even in those cases, that only applies to their standards, not everyone that assigns college basketball.

Peace

[Robert E. Harrison]

Michael Nance, Larry Nance's little brother. I worked JV games with him for one year and he went to camp and was picked up the next year. He moved to Atlanta and the rest is history. He is a very good D1 official. Brian Forte, Joe Forte's son is another one that went through our association very briefly and has been in the NBA for 5 or 6 years. Both of them knew what they wanted to do and went for it.

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison

Michael Nance, Larry Nance's little brother. I worked JV games with him for one year and he went to camp and was picked up the next year. He moved to Atlanta and the rest is history. He is a very good D1 official. Brian Forte, Joe Forte's son is another one that went through our association very briefly and has been in the NBA for 5 or 6 years. Both of them knew what they wanted to do and went for it.

*Which again lends credence to my intial point: Officiating has become so "standardized" that one can enter the reffing vocation at their desired level of competition and eventually become a satisfactory ref without wasting away your prime health years in hopes of moving up via the traditional ranks--when it may not pan out. Now please bear in mind that not every official wants to 'move up'. I know some guys/women who are content with just doing recreational leagues--making an extra $100 on the wknd, others who want to do college, and yet others who want to remain at the nfhs level. We are not assigning any "value-statement" to the choices one is free to make, but rather emphasizing the available options for in our vocation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

... rules in place that would have Earl Strom working 3+ years of JV ...

I don't remember Earl Strom being a member of my local board, but that's the rule here, at least for now. Our current president is working on putting new system into place with no mandatory "waiting period" for new officials to work varsity games.

[zm1283]

FWIW, and this is a different sport, but there are people with zero or very little umpiring experience who go to professional umpire school and get hired. They may or may not make it to MLB, but umpiring freshmen/JV games for 8-10 years isn't going to prepare them for professional baseball more than actually working those games will.