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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 24, 2014, 11:33am
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Tickle the Shooter's Belly/Torso During a Try for A Goal

I see this a lot and have been calling a "shooting foul".
Players get the point and eventually stop doing it.
Player told me "hey ref I did not hit that shooter".
I replied "You touched his chest/tummy area when he tried for a shot, I just want to see you play defense the normal way--hands extended up to contest it".
He never did it again.
Are you guys calling this a foul or are you letting defenders "slide" on this type of situation?
My partner started calling it when he saw me call it, we spoke during pre-game about these situations and confirmed that we are to be consistent.
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Old Wed Sep 24, 2014, 11:39am
AremRed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
I see this a lot and have been calling a "shooting foul".
Players get the point and eventually stop doing it.
Player told me "hey ref I did not hit that shooter".
I replied "You touched his chest/tummy area when he tried for a shot, I just want to see you play defense the normal way--hands extended up to contest it".
He never did it again.
Are you guys calling this a foul or are you letting defenders "slide" on this type of situation?
My partner started calling it when he saw me call it, we spoke during pre-game about these situations and confirmed that we are to be consistent.
I try to talk to defenders first when I see them doing it. In a game where the temperature is rising this could be a really annoying thing that sparks a shoving match so it's best to take care of it early. I like your method -- call it early and consistently and the players will quickly knock it off.
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Old Wed Sep 24, 2014, 11:58am
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If I feel like its going to escalate or is continuous and may lead to rough play or a reaction (as others have mentioned) I may blow it until it stops. As a one off or if nobody seems to be impacted or reacting I'll tend to let it go. Most kids are used to having to finished through some contact anyway at higher levels so a tummy touch isn't a big deal.

I feel likes its similar to players who stick their arm in on d and the offense flys by. If the offense isn't effected and there are not reactionary smacks or wacks that start to develop then let the blow by happen. IN this case let the shot or layup go down and play on.
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Old Wed Sep 24, 2014, 12:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
I see this a lot and have been calling a "shooting foul".
Players get the point and eventually stop doing it.
Player told me "hey ref I did not hit that shooter".
I replied "You touched his chest/tummy area when he tried for a shot, I just want to see you play defense the normal way--hands extended up to contest it".
He never did it again.
Are you guys calling this a foul or are you letting defenders "slide" on this type of situation?
My partner started calling it when he saw me call it, we spoke during pre-game about these situations and confirmed that we are to be consistent.

At no time is this a foul not an intentional personal foul.

The first time I see it I will do one of two things: I will either tell the defender to knock it off if the contact did not change the play or I will call a foul in the act of shooting.

If I did not call a foul the first time I see it, the second time I see it, it will at least be a foul in the act of shooting.

The third and thereafter it will be an intentional personal foul each and every time.

When I choose to take the "warning" approach the first time I see it, I let the defender know in no uncertain terms that the contact, by definition, is an intentional personal foul, and that does make an impression on most players.

The amazing thing is that this foul is committed by male players and not female players. I cannot remember the last time I had to talk to a female player about this type of contact.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Wed Sep 24, 2014, 02:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
The amazing thing is that this foul is committed by male players and not female players. I cannot remember the last time I had to talk to a female player about this type of contact.

MTD, Sr.
*If there are any female readers/participants on this forum, I do NOT mean to sound "sexist" when I make this comment: but in general I have observed that the female players are more fundamentally-sound and less concerned with concocting rule-bending behaviors/ploys to create offensive and/or defensive advantages. I've observed that they really 'talk" and communcate on defense telling their team-mates when screens are coming, they slide their feet on defense better, maintain defensive stance better, and the such. However, I have noticed that when they shoot jumpshots, many female shooters tend to take that little 'hop' step before they attempt a shot--ostensibly to "gather" themselves before the shot. Hmmmm, whether by definition this is a "travel" violation or not, it is never called by officials--male nor female officials in both nfhs, collegiate, and wnba levels as I have observed.
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Old Wed Sep 24, 2014, 03:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
I see this a lot and have been calling a "shooting foul".
Players get the point and eventually stop doing it.
Player told me "hey ref I did not hit that shooter".
I replied "You touched his chest/tummy area when he tried for a shot, I just want to see you play defense the normal way--hands extended up to contest it".
He never did it again.
Are you guys calling this a foul or are you letting defenders "slide" on this type of situation?
My partner started calling it when he saw me call it, we spoke during pre-game about these situations and confirmed that we are to be consistent.
Q. Why is the defender doing this? A. because s/he thinks it will affect the shot (and s/he's right -- just try to shoot with a little jab in the stomach -- even if it doesn't affect that shot, it will affect the form on the next).

Q. Is this legal defensive positioning or incidental contact? A. No.

So -- it's illegal contact that gives an advantage. Sure sounds like the definition of "foul" to me.
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Old Wed Sep 24, 2014, 04:00pm
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Yes, I call it. It's usually more of a poke in the torso in these parts.
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Old Wed Sep 24, 2014, 04:32pm
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Annoying ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
I cannot remember the last time I had to talk to a female player about this type of contact.
They don't have the time to do it. Their spending the entire game yelling, "Ball. Ball. Ball.".
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Old Wed Sep 24, 2014, 05:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
At no time is this a foul not an intentional personal foul.

The first time I see it I will do one of two things: I will either tell the defender to knock it off if the contact did not change the play or I will call a foul in the act of shooting.

If I did not call a foul the first time I see it, the second time I see it, it will at least be a foul in the act of shooting.

The third and thereafter it will be an intentional personal foul each and every time.

When I choose to take the "warning" approach the first time I see it, I let the defender know in no uncertain terms that the contact, by definition, is an intentional personal foul, and that does make an impression on most players.

The amazing thing is that this foul is committed by male players and not female players. I cannot remember the last time I had to talk to a female player about this type of contact.

MTD, Sr.
"At no time" except the first two times. Right?
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Old Wed Sep 24, 2014, 08:20pm
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I was wondering if he made a syntax error in that post.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 24, 2014, 08:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
...that little 'hop' step ...it is never called by officials...as I have observed.
Come observe here. It's a travel. We're trained to call it as such.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 25, 2014, 03:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
"At no time" except the first two times. Right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
I was wondering if he made a syntax error in that post.

Now you both have me on what I wrote. But it is too early in the morning for me to rewrite my post. Later this morning.

MTD, Sr.
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Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
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Old Thu Sep 25, 2014, 06:18am
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Before Your Early Afternoon Nap ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Later this morning.
After your late morning nap?
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 25, 2014, 07:41am
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There is no such thing as marginal contact on a jump shooter--if he hits him, I call it.
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Old Thu Sep 25, 2014, 08:43am
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Just please don't refer to it as the "tummy" again, its weird. And if its any type of jab its a foul. If it is just fingertips or very light, then nothing.
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