question about double dribble

[Raymond]

Sometimes people want to complicate matters more than is necessary.

The test doesn't make that distinction. It assumes that the official has judged the subsequent act a dribble and wants us now to judge its legality.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by badnewsref

sometimes people want to complicate matters more than is necessary.

The test doesn't make that distinction. It assumes that the official has judged the subsequent act a dribble and wants us now to judge its legality.

+1

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The test doesn't make that distinction. It assumes that the official has judged the subsequent act a dribble and wants us now to judge its legality.

You've seen the test already? Can you send me a copy?

A1 dribbles into the front court and stops his/her dribble, holding the ball with two hands. Subsequently A1 fumbles the ball, which bounces twice on the floor. Without the ball being touched by any other player, A1 picks up the fumbled ball with both hands and then pushes the ball to the floor, at which point the official sounds his/her whistle and calls an illegal dribble violation on A1. Is the official correct?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sometimes (often) you have to officiate the game. Sometimes (seldom) you have to take a written test. In theory they should have the same answer, but sometimes theory and reality don't agree.

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are different.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are different.

Cool.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You've seen the test already. Can you send me a copy?

A1 dribbles into the front court and stops his/her dribble, holding the ball with two hands. Subsequently A1 fumbles the ball, which bounces twice on the floor. Without the ball being touched by any other player, A1 picks up the fumbled ball with both hands and then pushes the ball to the floor, at which point the official sounds his/her whistle and calls an illegal dribble violation on A1. Is the official correct?

yes

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

yes

just another ref's answer seems to be correct by the written rule. So I guess a player can't legally make a "bad" bounce pass to a nearby teammate after picking up his/her fumbled ball in this situation?

Regarding the difference, in a real game (damn the rulebook definitions), between starting a dribble, and starting a pass, to borrow a phrase from Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it".

[JetMetFan]

So...what about this?

[BillyMac]

As the announcer stated, "High bounce pass".

[Adam]

That's clearly a pass to me, but the motion sure looks the same. That's why I'm not inclined to call anything on the "double dribble" violations until the dribbler contacts the ball after the bounce.

[Raymond]

SDF officiating makes this an easy play to deal with.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You've seen the test already. Can you send me a copy?

A1 dribbles into the front court and stops his/her dribble, holding the ball with two hands. Subsequently A1 fumbles the ball, which bounces twice on the floor. Without the ball being touched by any other player, A1 picks up the fumbled ball with both hands and then pushes the ball to the floor, at which point the official sounds his/her whistle and calls an illegal dribble violation on A1. Is the official correct?

no

[BillyMac]

The NFHS wants you to bet your house on the answer to this written test question:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 dribbles into the front court and stops his/her dribble, holding the ball with two hands. Subsequently A1 fumbles the ball, which bounces twice on the floor. Without the ball being touched by any other player, A1 picks up the fumbled ball with both hands and then pushes the ball to the floor, at which point the official sounds his/her whistle and calls an illegal dribble violation on A1. Is the official correct?

Originally Posted by just another ref

yes

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

no

Who loses their house?

Let's go to the written rule, and definition:

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

4-15: ART. 1 A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.
ART. 3 The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

In the written test question, has the player pushed the ball to the floor once, and thus started a dribble? Yes.

In the written test question, has the player committed an illegal dribble violation? Yes.

In a real game, I'm waiting to see what happens after the ball hits the floor. If the player doesn't touch the ball again, then I'm calling it a pass, not a dribble, and I'm not calling the illegal dribble violation.

On the other hand, if the NFHS were holding a gun to my head, forcing me to bet my house on the correct answer, by the book, based on the written rule as it presently stands, to this question, I'm calling it an illegal dribble violation. I want to keep my house.

Wouldn't it be nice if the NFHS cleaned up this rule, and definition, to reflect what we, here in the trenches, call in a real game?

[Adam]

The rule clarifies when a dribble begins, assuming it's a dribble. Real world officiating requires the official to judge whether it's a dribble or a pass. We can't have our collective noses buried so deep into the book we can't tell the difference. Sometimes, we have to wait a second to see whether it's a pass or a dribble. IOW, as BNR stated, SDF.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Sometimes, we have to wait a second to see whether it's a pass or a dribble.

Bingo.