Coach situation

High school teams here are allowed to scrimmage during June. I was working the semifinal of a tournament with pretty big schools. Game is going well when my partner (Lead and a veteran official) makes a tough block/charge call during transition. He calls a charge on A1. I am Trail tableside right next to Coach A (in his 43rd year coaching). Coach A goes nuts yelling about how that was a terrible call. He's yelling at my partner but I am right there. I was at his side right after he started yelling and was talking to him saying "coach stop, coach calm down, etc". He had been good so far in the game, hadn't been an ass, so I wanted to give him a chance to calm down.

He didn't take that chance, so I turned away and called a tech. I immediately walk away from him as he starts to realize what I've done. I walk towards the C and meet him at halfcourt. I tell him I've called a tech, etc., etc. Meanwhile Coach A has stopped yelling at Lead for the call and is now yelling at me. "What did I do to you?!? I was yelling at him!" I could have given him a second but (wisely I think) chose not to.

Later in the game I was Trail during FT's and talked to him for a minute. I mostly listened and let him vent a little. No surprise he didn't think he deserved that one.

My questions: should I have let my partner who made the call deal with the yelling and call the tech? Do I have a responsibility being tableside right there to call the tech to back up my P? If warranted, should I call the second tech or let a partner get it? This is summer league ball and I didn't think it was the right environment to run him by myself.

[johnny d]

Since your partner is going to come to the table to report the foul, I would ignore the coach as I am vacating the area if he is in the box and just yelling about how he disagrees with the foul. My partner can handle his own business when he gets there. You have no responsibility in that case to protect him. If the coach is out of the box, yelling profanities, throwing things, or jumping up and down, then I would not wait for my partner to tech the coach. From the description, I think you teched him too fast, but maybe the coaches behavior was so bad it couldn't be ignored. If my partner chooses not to handle his business, I will step in and let the coach know that I understand he disagrees with the call, he has been given an opportunity to voice his displeasure, but he cannot continue to yell at my partner across the floor, and that we are moving on. If he continues after that, then I will tech him.

If his only comment to you was what you wrote, than there would be no reason for you or your partners to give him a second tech. Anything more than that, and he needs to be tossed.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by AremRed

High school teams here are allowed to scrimmage during June. I was working the semifinal of a tournament with pretty big schools. Game is going well when my partner (Lead and a veteran official) makes a tough block/charge call during transition. He calls a charge on A1. I am Trail tableside right next to Coach A (in his 43rd year coaching). Coach A goes nuts yelling about how that was a terrible call. He's yelling at my partner but I am right there. I was at his side right after he started yelling and was talking to him saying "coach stop, coach calm down, etc". He had been good so far in the game, hadn't been an ass, so I wanted to give him a chance to calm down.

He didn't take that chance, so I turned away and called a tech. I immediately walk away from him as he starts to realize what I've done. I walk towards the C and meet him at halfcourt. I tell him I've called a tech, etc., etc. Meanwhile Coach A has stopped yelling at Lead for the call and is now yelling at me. "What did I do to you?!? I was yelling at him!" I could have given him a second but (wisely I think) chose not to.

Later in the game I was Trail during FT's and talked to him for a minute. I mostly listened and let him vent a little. No surprise he didn't think he deserved that one.

My questions: should I have let my partner who made the call deal with the yelling and call the tech? Do I have a responsibility being tableside right there to call the tech to back up my P? If warranted, should I call the second tech or let a partner get it? This is summer league ball and I didn't think it was the right environment to run him by myself.

AremRed:

First, the most important thing is that the Game Officials are a Team. And official's only friends on the court are his fellow officials.

Second, you did the correct thing by staying by the HC's side after the L's call. You were providing a buffer between him and the L as the L goes to the Reporting Area. You were doing your job to get the HC to calm down by getting the HC to stop focusing on your partner and worry about his Team.

Third, when everything is all said and down sometimes you just have to be the one that "whacks" the HC if he won't stop acting like an idiot.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

johnny d gave you the college philosophy. MTD Sr. provided the HS stance.

Depends upon where you are and what level you are working how the powers-that-be want unsporting behavior handled.

BTW what was your game fee for this?

[stripes]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Game is going well when my partner (Lead and a veteran official) makes a tough block/charge call during transition. He calls a charge on A1. I am Trail tableside right next to Coach A (in his 43rd year coaching). Coach A goes nuts yelling about how that was a terrible call.

I think you can appreciate that this is a big deal to the coach (even if you think he is wrong about the call) and he is going to voice his displeasure with the call. You should expect that in any game.

He's yelling at my partner but I am right there. I was at his side right after he started yelling and was talking to him saying "coach stop, coach calm down, etc". He had been good so far in the game, hadn't been an ass, so I wanted to give him a chance to calm down.

Other than voicing his displeasure, was he doing anything to draw attention to himself? Jumping up and down? Throwing a clipboard? Ripping off his jacket? Storming out of the box? Standing out of the box?

He didn't take that chance, so I turned away and called a tech. I immediately walk away from him as he starts to realize what I've done. I walk towards the C and meet him at halfcourt. I tell him I've called a tech, etc., etc. Meanwhile Coach A has stopped yelling at Lead for the call and is now yelling at me. "What did I do to you?!? I was yelling at him!" I could have given him a second but (wisely I think) chose not to.

Was it wise to give him the first one? You said that your partner was a veteran. Could he not handle his own business? Did your partner say anything to the coach prior to your T? Very likely, the coach was so wound up about the call he never heard your warning.

Later in the game I was Trail during FT's and talked to him for a minute. I mostly listened and let him vent a little. No surprise he didn't think he deserved that one.

This was a good move, IMO. Give him a chance to talk about it. As you well know, coaches can earn one in many ways, but in their opinion if there is a very limited list of reasons that they can get a T.

My questions: should I have let my partner who made the call deal with the yelling and call the tech? Do I have a responsibility being tableside right there to call the tech to back up my P? If warranted, should I call the second tech or let a partner get it? This is summer league ball and I didn't think it was the right environment to run him by myself.

Without having seen the situation, it is hard to determine what was the proper course of action. I can tell you that if I called the foul and you called the T, the film had better show that the coach did something or said something that there could be NO OTHER CHOICE except to issue a T. I want to handle my business. I expect my partners to do the same.

I think you do need to back up your partner, but I'm not sure that you need to "protect" a veteran. Did your partner agree with your T? Was he prepared to give one there? Surely he heard the coach's yelling.

The second T is a tricky situation. The assignor here does not want the same official issuing both Ts. In general principle, I agree with him. Make sure the coach really earns his exit. However, there are times where the same official should give both. In this situation, if the coach should be tossed, it would be obvious to your partners as well.

Summer ball is a great time for these types of situations. I would talk about this situation in detail with people in your area who you trust and see what they think should be done. From what you have described, I think you were too quick to give the T. Some venting on a tough call is to be expected and is a normal part of the game. You have to know where to draw the line with regards to behavior and punish those who step over the line. If this coach stepped over the line...you were right.

[BryanV21]

I've been taught that if you call the first tech on a coach/player, then you should let your partner call the second (if needed).

There are two reasons for this...

1) Your feelings regarding the first tech may skew your judgment and lead to an unnecessary second.

2) In the eyes of the coach it doesn't look like it's one particular official that's "out to get him".

BTW, I'm strictly a high school official, so I'm sure things are done different at the college level. Seeing how Coach Jim Boeheim acted last year certainly tells me that.

[Multiple Sports]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

johnny d gave you the college philosophy. MTD Sr. provided the HS stance.

Depends upon where you are and what level you are working how the powers-that-be want unsporting behavior handled.

BTW what was your game fee for this?

Couldn't have said this better !!!! NVREF you are 100% right !!!

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I've been taught that if you call the first tech on a coach/player, then you should let your partner call the second (if needed).

There are two reasons for this...

1) Your feelings regarding the first tech may skew your judgment and lead to an unnecessary second.

2) In the eyes of the coach it doesn't look like it's one particular official that's "out to get him".

BTW, I'm strictly a high school official, so I'm sure things are done different at the college level. Seeing how Coach Jim Boeheim acted last year certainly tells me that.

I agree with this philosophy in "theory" but we have to be careful to make sure young refs understand it is not "policy". Was observing two newer refs doing a varsity level summer game when the coach went crazy. After R1 (who made the call in question) correctly T'd him he stormed onto the floor, got in her personal space, and she tossed him as R2, who had been on other end of court was making his way there. After game we sat to discuss a she was miffed that R2 didn't get the 2nd Tech and started to lay into him. She thought partner was always supposed to get 2nd T and felt she was doing his dirty work. Luckily, R2 was understanding and both learned something from it.

For me, this philosophy is correct if there is a delay between the two techs -- maybe I Tee the coach and then later when he continually misbehaves or refuses to stay seated I discuss with partner and he zaps him the next time it happens. But if its bang bang then I fire off both barrels without hesitation.

And, as for reason #1, my judgement is never skewed by this. Its not personal and I don't look for T's. For reason #2, don't care. I can't control what a coach wants to think when I enforce rules. I've been around long enough not to have to worry about reputations, coaches talking about me to each other, or being scratched. For those that do have to worry, keep doing it by the book and you won't have to worry long. Good word about you will spread.

[Rich1]

Since I wasn't there and don't have video, I say that you should trust your judgement and your partner should too. If you thought it was T worthy then it was T worthy. It sounds like he raised enough of a ruckus to draw your attention, ignored your warnings, and earned a T. It doesn't matter that he wasn't talking to you.

I also applaude the fact that you walked away, discussed the T with your partners, and later had a polite conversation with the coach. This not only shows true professionalism, it is also how youget to that place in our profession where you can administer your games without fear of having your action & motives being questioned. This also tells me that your original actions and judgement were most likely spot on. Bravo!

[Pantherdreams]

Sounds like you did the right things all around. Good chance afterwards to debrief with partner about the situation and how it was handled or what if scenarios if things had gone differently.

In a similar path: How much latitude do you give in terms of as you call the first T before you are considering it the second T issue?

Ie. If a coach is spouting off or player chirps, I know guys that the second they blow the first T they expect the behviour to stop as soon as the T is called. Others will call it and walk away and let the coach simmer or finish their rant.

Obviously most of this is contextual who is saying what when etc. But as a rule of thumb at what point does the statement/behaviour that earns the first T stop being that case and become the 2nd?

[srp6977]

Yes you have the responsibility to T him for yelling at your partner. Yelling at you or one of your partners no difference you have to whack him if it is that level even if not directed to you.

You were right on going directly to your partners to tell them what you got. They should have had your back if he continued and gave him a second T and sent him on his way. Same guy should never have to have the second T in a situation like that unless his partners have no guts. The you do it yourself and let them know they dropped the ball when in the locker room.

As far as talking to a coach about a technical:

Coach: Can I talk to you?
Me: Sure I will talk to you about anything but the technical.
Usually ends right there.

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by stripes

I think you can appreciate that this is a big deal to the coach (even if you think he is wrong about the call) and he is going to voice his displeasure with the call. You should expect that in any game.

Maybe you should expect it...but there's no reason to tolerate excessive nonsense from a coach regardless of how many years at the helm

Originally Posted by stripes

Other than voicing his displeasure, was he doing anything to draw attention to himself? Jumping up and down? Throwing a clipboard? Ripping off his jacket? Storming out of the box? Standing out of the box?

Those aren't the only criteria for whacking a coach. If the coach is disrupting the game in any way, that's sufficient. Stand there and wail about a call? Fine...up to a point. With that many years in, he should know that point.

Originally Posted by stripes

Was it wise to give him the first one?

If he deserves it, ABSOLUTELY.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Sounds like you did the right things all around. Good chance afterwards to debrief with partner about the situation and how it was handled or what if scenarios if things had gone differently.

In a similar path: How much latitude do you give in terms of as you call the first T before you are considering it the second T issue?

Ie. If a coach is spouting off or player chirps, I know guys that the second they blow the first T they expect the behviour to stop as soon as the T is called. Others will call it and walk away and let the coach simmer or finish their rant.

Obviously most of this is contextual who is saying what when etc. But as a rule of thumb at what point does the statement/behaviour that earns the first T stop being that case and become the 2nd?

I will usually give one last verbal warning unless the continued comment or behavior is aggregious. Something like "let it go and move on so we can avoid further actions and get back to the game" - in my best sweet & nonthreatening voice of course. This goes over better if you have already spent time building rapport and talking with the coach during the game.

I try to do this before hand as well. Last weekend had a team loudly bemoaning my partners call. As he reported the foul I politely advised both teams to not "let the attitudes get out of hand." One girl looked at me and mumbled "when the calls get fair". I replied with another warning "next time that will earn a T" and when she rolled her eyes, shrugged her shoulders, and mumbled "so", she got one. I could have fired off right away but thought better game management to be patient but I didn't get the opportunity to do so.

By the way, whether I give a loud warning, put a warning in the book (I know, its a Texas thing), or give a soft warning to a coach or player, I always make sure my partner knows to whom and why the warning was issued so he can be on the same page.

[Adam]

I've got no problem with this T coming from the non-calling official. If the partner came to me bitching about the call later, I'd ask him why the hell he hadn't taken care of business if he found it so important (assuming the coach's comments warranted a T). Even if they didn't, I'm of the opinion that a quick T now and then helps coaches stay on their toes. Summer league? Easy call, IMO (Nevadaref touched on one reason). If a coach is yelling at my partner when I'm standing right next to him, and he runs right through my warnings, I'm going to handle it myself.

I've been known to make eye contact with my partner, too, and typically this situation results in a nod of agreement between is: but it's not necessary.

And "I wasn't talking to/yelling at you" doesn't carry much weight with me, particularly if he is yelling at my partner.

[Rich]

Summer ball?

Whack.