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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 10:47am
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Easy solution. Call the foul and then whack the kid for the overenthusiastic clapping after the foul.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 10:49am
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I'd have a word with A2 as the ball was still in the administering official's hands. Failing that, I have a TC foul on A2 just as was called. If A HC comments, I respond with, "coach, the contact started during the dead ball. By the book, that's a technical foul."
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 10:49am
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1) I'm ok with the foul as called.

2)THere is some incedental contact before the ball is at the throwers disposal but unless it gets to more than that its pretty standard fare.

3) THe offensive player pushed off.

4) Was there a sell job at the time? I couldn't really tell from the angle but the green players reaction after the fact tells me he was probably doing some acting too.

5) I like the call in the moment but watching the after effects feel like the green kid might have sold one so I'll be vigilant on him after this.

6) There is a comment made by a parent in the background about tackling in basketball which leads me to believe this incident isn't existing in a bubble which may mean less contact is being required at this point to earn a foul.

7) Some of these games kids play might be better if they were played in empty gyms.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 11:04am
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Kid was going to push off, defender pulled the chair out and embellished as the offense pushed. I like the foul because if the offense doesn't push then the defenders embellishment wouldn't have worked.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 11:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
Kid was going to push off, defender pulled the chair out and embellished as the offense pushed. I like the foul because if the offense doesn't push then the defenders embellishment wouldn't have worked.
Kid was leaning on him, yes. Was going to push off? Maybe so, but I can't penalize him for what he was going to do. I agree that the defender pulled the chair out. (fell voluntarily) So did the contact by the offense gain him an advantage? I say no.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 11:43am
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I believe this was a poor call. The offense did not push the defender. He was touching the defender, but that reaction didn't not match the action. The defender flopped.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 12:33pm
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If the offense "pushed off" wouldn't his momentum go the opposite direction of the defender? If I push you with any force at all, you are going to go backwards and I am going to go in the direction I am pushing toward. The offensive player was leaning on the defense, which then flopped, and you see the offensive player's momentum continue toward the defense. I don't like this call at all, and the defenses clapping afterward could easily be seen as taunting.

There were probably some instances of pushes earlier in the game that could have resulted in warnings or even fouls, so the defense wanted to make sure and get this call.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 12:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ballgame99 View Post
If the offense "pushed off" wouldn't his momentum go the opposite direction of the defender? If I push you with any force at all, you are going to go backwards and I am going to go in the direction I am pushing toward. The offensive player was leaning on the defense, which then flopped, and you see the offensive player's momentum continue toward the defense. I don't like this call at all, and the defenses clapping afterward could easily be seen as taunting.

There were probably some instances of pushes earlier in the game that could have resulted in warnings or even fouls, so the defense wanted to make sure and get this call.
He spent the 5 seconds prior to the throw in pushing the defender away by walking him down away from the thrower. His momentum was going to take him into the defender.

The defender finally had enough and ceased the resistance. Push on a wall, and let the wall fall down, you'll go down with it.

Same concept, IMO.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 01:09pm
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He did a lot more than cease the resistance. Appears to me he dove backward and let out a yell to draw attention to himself.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 01:43pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
He did a lot more than cease the resistance. Appears to me he dove backward and let out a yell to draw attention to himself.
If I would have had my eyes on them the entire time, I would have had a flop and no call, but if I would have just seen it out of the corner of my eye, I would probably have bought it and called a foul.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 02:07pm
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How much resistance is the defender supposed to put up as the offense uses two hands to shove him? Offense was pushing up the defense just embellished the contact. Unless the defense grabs his arms which you can not see in the video, it seem that the offense's arms extended tells the story. The reason the offense fell towards the defense is because the defense didn't hold the resistance the offense expected.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 02:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
He did a lot more than cease the resistance. Appears to me he dove backward and let out a yell to draw attention to himself.
He fell backwards, and he did so with minimal contact, but I don't see where he's required to resist. As for the yell, it's irrelevant, IMO. I watched it without sound, and I still like the call (although I would have been fine with a no-call as well.)
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 03:56pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
As for the yell, it's irrelevant, IMO.
It's relevant only in that it supports the idea that the whole thing was staged.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 04:44pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
It's relevant only in that it supports the idea that the whole thing was staged.
Maybe, and I don't disagree that it was staged. The thing is, the offense opens himself up to this by shoving the defender down court. We tell players all the time to stop giving ground. He stops, and just allows himself to be pushed down. I'm ok with that.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 11, 2014, 04:45pm
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Was the offense putting some amount of pressure on him, sure. But that isn't a foul. The question that needs to be asked is whether the contact displaced the defender? To that question, the answer is no. There was no where near enough force in the contact that was there to displace the defender like that.

The sequence of actions/reactions was all wrong for the offensive player to have caused that result. He was applying just as much force (only slight) as the defender was applying in the opposite direction up to the time the defender chose to throw himself to the floor. The arms only extended because the defender removed the resistance, not because of a shove.

And for those that look at the action before the "shove", that is no different than a defender in the post giving ground to another player as the other player works for the shot...he willingly stepped backwards. It is a red herring, at best.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 11:03pm.
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