Kentucky/UConn Continuous Motion (end of 1st half foul) (video)

[BillyMac]

NFHS 4-41 SHOOTING, TRY, TAP
ART. 1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try
or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.
ART. 4 The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the
throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball
becomes dead.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Uh, Camron, if the try has not yet begun, then we can't have continuous motion from the foul.

I agree, but it's going to have to be very clear to me that there was a momentary loss of control before I wave off the shot and give him 2 FTs. I don't see how continuous motion can include a loss of control, but changing hands wouldn't be enough for me to wave it off.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

I agree, but it's going to have to be very clear to me that there was a momentary loss of control before I wave off the shot and give him 2 FTs. I don't see how continuous motion can include a loss of control, but changing hands wouldn't be enough for me to wave it off.

I'm good with the changing hands, but we're talking about the play now where the ball was clearly caught out of the air after the contact.

[Nevadaref]

I would counsel those of you who would count the goal in either the switching hands scenario or the temporary loss of control situation to take a few moments to consult the text of the rules for continuous motion. There are some very specific terms and phrases used therein, which don't mesh with scoring a goal in either of these instances.

NFHS Rule 4, Sec 11
ART. 1

Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.


ART. 2

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.


Notice "habitual throwing movement", "complete the customary arm movement", and "usual throwing motion."
Do any of those phrases apply to the actions of a player switching the ball from one hand to the other or regaining possession of a ball and shooting?
Can you really state that the player finished his customary arm movement or that such is his usual throwing motion?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Uh, Camron, if the try has not yet begun, then we can't have continuous motion from the foul.
PS watch out for BillyMac to post an image of Yoda!

I guess what I really meant was "throw" because that is what is used in the definition of how the try ends. If the player hasn't yet thrown the ball, is there a throw that can be deemed unsuccessful?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Notice "habitual throwing movement", "complete the customary arm movement", and "usual throwing motion."
Do any of those phrases apply to the actions of a player switching the ball from one hand to the other or regaining possession of a ball and shooting?
Can you really state that the player finished his customary arm movement or that such is his usual throwing motion?

Absolutely. By including foot movement and pivoting in the definition of continuous motion, they have told is that the window of continuous motion can include a lot of action. Moving from hand to hand seems to be very inline with those principles.

I tend to agree, however, with your conclusion on a ball that is knocked away from the shooter. That seems like a new attempt to me.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

...
Do any of those phrases apply to the actions of a player switching the ball from one hand to the other...?

Most definitely. Seen plenty of players ball fake one way and switch to the other hand for a scoop shot.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Most definitely. Seen plenty of players ball fake one way and switch to the other hand for a scoop shot.

So is a player who is fouled while pump-faking in the act of shooting? Is the fake part of his trying motion, which the rule permits him to finish?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So is a player who is fouled while pump-faking in the act of shooting? Is the fake part of his trying motion, which the rule permits him to finish?

This is not a good comparison. It is a judgment call whether the try has started. By calling it a pump fake, you are telling us it has not. In this thread, it is a given that a try has started. The question is whether the try ends and another try starts or whether the try has simply been altered. I'm in the camp which says a player who maintains control may do anything necessary to complete the try after contact, but once the ball is released, voluntarily or not, it cannot be caught again and be part of the same try.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So is a player who is fouled while pump-faking in the act of shooting? Is the fake part of his trying motion, which the rule permits him to finish?

Not necessarily. But if the player is in the air, I'm not considering any of their movement a fake. The will be in one motion from the time the jump (and likely before) until they release the ball on a try or land.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not necessarily. But if the player is in the air, I'm not considering any of their movement a fake. The will be in one motion from the time the jump (and likely before) until they release the ball on a try or land.

What does being airborne have to do with the act of shooting prior to the release?
Are you saying that you would give an airborne player more "rights" than one who is in contact with the floor?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What does being airborne have to do with the act of shooting prior to the release?
Are you saying that you would give an airborne player more "rights" than one who is in contact with the floor?

Most players who are in the act of shooting do become airborne prior to the release.

Not more rights but the time period they could possible remain airborne is so short that I think it could only be considered part of one motion. A player not airborne might be in motion just as long, or longer.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I would counsel those of you who would count the goal in either the switching hands scenario or the temporary loss of control situation to take a few moments to consult the text of the rules for continuous motion. There are some very specific terms and phrases used therein, which don't mesh with scoring a goal in either of these instances.

NFHS Rule 4, Sec 11
ART. 1

Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.


ART. 2

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.
Notice "habitual throwing movement", "complete the customary arm movement", and "usual throwing motion."
Do any of those phrases apply to the actions of a player switching the ball from one hand to the other or regaining possession of a ball and shooting?
Can you really state that the player finished his customary arm movement or that such is his usual throwing motion?

The verbiage in Article 2 indicates that when the player loses contact with the ball, the attempt must be considered as having ended. My conclusion would be that to move the position of the ball from right hand to left, while still maintaining contact - (still holding the ball) - such as in the 1st video -the shot is still valid. But as seen in the 2nd video, the attempt must be considered as having ended, and 2 shots would be appropriate.
JMO

[Nevadaref]

While an unusual situation, I thought that it would be worth discussing with the forum members and reflecting upon.

What stands out to me in the case of a player switching hands after being fouled is the text at the start of the second article: "If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, ..."
Can we really state that the player had already started his try before being fouled when the ball was actually in his other hand? I guess I just don't see how a player can start his shooting motion with one hand and finish it with the other. That certainly isn't "customary" or "usual."

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

While an unusual situation, I thought that it would be worth discussing with the forum members and reflecting upon.

What stands out to me in the case of a player switching hands after being fouled is the text at the start of the second article: "If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, ..."
Can we really state that the player had already started his try before being fouled when the ball was actually in his other hand? I guess I just don't see how a player can start his shooting motion with one hand and finish it with the other. That certainly isn't "customary" or "usual."

I'm a washed up men's league player, and I can do this move. Certainly good HS players and above can as well.