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NCHSAA Tue Oct 29, 2013 09:21am

NCAA Shot Clock
 
Play: White #15 feels at 5' 10" he can dunk among trees. He goes up in the lane and is rejected by the front of the rim. The ball does NOT leave his hands on the dunk attempt. The shot clock is at 2 seconds. He subsequently returns to the court still in player-control.

Decision: Shot clock reset? Travel?

What say you?

JetMetFan Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:08am

From what I’m finding in the NCAAW rule book here are the relevant citations (if they’re the same on the NCAAM side of the ledger I’d appreciate it if you guys could confirm):

Quote:

(5-1-1) A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing or tapping the ball into her basket.

(5-1-6) A dunk is a try for goal that occurs when any player gains control of a ball that is neither in the cylinder nor on the ring and then attempts to drive, force or stuff the ball through the basket.

(5-1-10) The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball on a try. The ball does not need to leave the player’s hand. The arm might be held so that the player cannot throw; however, she may be making an attempt.

(9-12-2) A shot-clock try for field goal is defined as the ball having left the shooter’s hand(s) before the sounding of the shot-clock horn and then striking the ring or flange, or entering the basket.

(9-12-4) It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time (as indicated by the sounding of the shot-clock horn) or when it does leave the shooter’s hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time and the try does not subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.
So it appears you have a try but you don’t have a shot-clock try, meaning you can’t have a travel but the shot-clock wouldn’t reset. A1 would have two seconds for a shot-clock try before committing a violation. Essentially the rules treat this scenario as an air ball.

NCHSAA Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:16am

Off of memory, it looks the same.

5-1-10: Deals with a foul. Under the play in question a foul did not prevent the release...but the rim did (embarrassing for the player)

5-1-6: States a dunk is a try, which we know. In the play, a dunk was attempted. However, unlike a NORMAL shot or dunk, player control was not lost. Does the lack of losing player-control void the attempt?

Craziest play I have ever seen...and to top it off a similar play was on the NCAA test

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 909260)
From what I’m finding in the NCAAW rule book here are the relevant citations (if they’re the same on the NCAAM side of the ledger I’d appreciate it if you guys could confirm):



So it appears you have a try but you don’t have a shot-clock try, meaning you can’t have a travel but the shot-clock wouldn’t reset. A1 would have two seconds for a shot-clock try before committing a violation. Essentially the rules treat this scenario as an air ball.


bob jenkins Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCHSAA (Post 909247)
Play: White #15 feels at 5' 10" he can dunk among trees. He goes up in the lane and is rejected by the front of the rim. The ball does NOT leave his hands on the dunk attempt. The shot clock is at 2 seconds. He subsequently returns to the court still in player-control.

Decision: Shot clock reset? Travel?

What say you?

Travel. The player always had control, even though it started as a try.

The play is no different than "Player rises for jump shot, sees the ball will be block, keeps holding the ball and lands."

JetMetFan Tue Oct 29, 2013 04:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 909277)
Travel. The player always had control, even though it started as a try.

The play is no different than "Player rises for jump shot, sees the ball will be block, keeps holding the ball and lands."

But it’s still a try. If the shot had been blocked by a person as opposed to the rim that doesn’t change what it was when A1 rose off the floor. As long as we determine it was a try to begin with 5-1-10 says the ball doesn’t have to leave A1’s hands.


Quote:

Originally Posted by NCHSAA (Post 909270)
5-1-10: Deals with a foul. Under the play in question a foul did not prevent the release...but the rim did (embarrassing for the player)

I think the foul described in the rule is just for the purpose of providing an example. It’s also the most likely way A1 would not be able to release the try.


Quote:

Originally Posted by NCHSAA (Post 909270)
5-1-6: States a dunk is a try, which we know. In the play, a dunk was attempted. However, unlike a NORMAL shot or dunk, player control was not lost. Does the lack of losing player-control void the attempt?

If it was B1 who caused the ball to remain in A1’s hands would A1 have lost PC? I'm saying "no" because in that scenario it would be a held ball once A1 returned to the floor and part of the definition/description of a held ball involving an airborne player says that player “returns to the playing court never losing control of the ball.” (NCAAW 6-4-2b) It's still a try, just one that isn't successful.

bob jenkins Tue Oct 29, 2013 06:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 909329)
But it’s still a try. If the shot had been blocked by a person as opposed to the rim that doesn’t change what it was when A1 rose off the floor. As long as we determine it was a try to begin with 5-1-10 says the ball doesn’t have to leave A1’s hands.




I think the foul described in the rule is just for the purpose of providing an example. It’s also the most likely way A1 would not be able to release the try.




If it was B1 who caused the ball to remain in A1’s hands would A1 have lost PC? I'm saying "no" because in that scenario it would be a held ball once A1 returned to the floor and part of the definition/description of a held ball involving an airborne player says that player “returns to the playing court never losing control of the ball.” (NCAAW 6-4-2b) It's still a try, just one that isn't successful.

I think there's a specific case play where A1 jumps, the ball is touched by B1, the touch doesn't prevent the release and A1 lands. It's travelling.

In practice, 99% of the time it will be a held ball.

reffish Tue Oct 29, 2013 07:14pm

NCAAW:

A dunk is a try for goal according to Rule 5-1.6
The shot clock is stopped and reset when a try for goal strikes the ring according to Rule 2-11.6d
So, reset the shot clock
It cannot be a travel because player control is lost when there is try for goal, therefore the player can recover the shot attempt and resume normal activities.

BktBallRef Tue Oct 29, 2013 08:18pm

NCAA 9-12-2
A shot-clock try for field goal is defined as the ball having left the shooter’s hand(s) before the sounding of the shot-clock horn and then striking the ring or flange, or entering the basket.


Note that a shot-clock try for goal is different than try for goal.

bob jenkins Tue Oct 29, 2013 09:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by reffish (Post 909348)
It cannot be a travel because player control is lost when there is try for goal,

Reference.

NCAAW 4-9 says team control continues until the ball is in flight during a try...

I don't see any exceptions in Travelling related to a try.

jeschmit Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 909366)
Reference.

NCAAW 4-9 says team control continues until the ball is in flight during a try...

I don't see any exceptions in Travelling related to a try.

I see what you did there... :rolleyes:

bob jenkins Wed Oct 30, 2013 09:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeschmit (Post 909370)
I see what you did there... :rolleyes:

First typo ever.

HawkeyeCubP Wed Oct 30, 2013 05:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by reffish (Post 909348)
NCAAW:
A dunk is a try for goal according to Rule 5-1.6
The shot clock is stopped and reset when a try for goal strikes the ring according to Rule 2-11.6d
So, reset the shot clock

9-12-2 supersedes and supplements (if that's possible to do both) 2-11.6.d. A shot clock try, as mentioned above already, must leave the shooter's hand. This is a NCAA-M test question, and the answer is wanting people to understand 9-12-2 and 9-12-4.

I don't personally like the rule/ruling on this, because it defies common sense (at least in my thinking), but iiwis.

Camron Rust Wed Oct 30, 2013 06:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 909395)
First typo ever.

What typo? It actually is a valid alternate spelling of traveling. But you probably have to use FIBA rules to call travelling.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us...rican-spelling

BillyMac Thu Oct 31, 2013 06:07am

Pip Pip, Cheerio And All That Rot ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 909452)
What typo? It actually is a valid alternate spelling of traveling.

It's the correct metric spelling.

jeschmit Thu Oct 31, 2013 07:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 909452)
What typo? It actually is a valid alternate spelling of traveling. But you probably have to use FIBA rules to call travelling.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us...rican-spelling

I took his "typo" as paying homage to a certain poster who took this board by storm this past summer... Seeing as how he capitalized it as well.

Whether he did it on purpose or not, it made me laugh.


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