Nova vs Georgetown

[pizanno]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

If Jay Bilas is such a expert on what, when, & how to call the game then he should put on the stripes, strap on a whistle, & blow!!! That guy is a horses Azz. Its to easy for him to pin the mistake on the official and not the player.

At the risk of being a Bilas apologist, I think out of all the analysts and columnists, he has always exhibited the most understanding of officials and our craft, even defending them at times against the consipracy theorists (read: whiners). What I like about him is he gives me (as an official) a coach's and player's perspective having been there himself, and he doesn't scapegoat.

His point is often that officials (and questionable calls) are part of the game and always have been. In this technological age of triple slo-mo reverse angle replay, mistakes are more public and the media (youtube, too) further perpetuates the public's low tolerance for less than perfect officiating. Coaches and players who blame refs on last second calls or no-calls need to get over it and look at how their teams performance in the previous 39 minutes of play determined the outcome. (still trying to find that article he wrote on ESPN.com a few years ago)

What I heard him say in the post-game is consistent with what my supervisors and other veteran officials in my area would say. Game awareness of the score (tied) and situation (75 feet from hoop) is tantamount and this is a perfect example of why.

Bilas says that for a veteran crew, they should know better, and I agree.

Rafferty said (paraphrasing) "a foul at the beginning of the game should be a foul at the end of the game, right?"

Bilas: "not for the good officials".

Color guy: "looks like because he stepped OOB he felt he needed to make the call"

Bilas: "you can rationalize it however you want, but for the game to have been decided that way is unfortunate."

This is what I took away from it....and what I will apply to my game. The debate of whether this is a foul or not (or OOB or not) in the context of this single play is missing the big picture.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by pizanno

What I heard him say in the post-game is consistent with what my supervisors and other veteran officials in my area would say.

Color guy: "looks like because he stepped OOB he felt he needed to make the call"

Bilas: "you can rationalize it however you want, but for the game to have been decided that way is unfortunate."

If your supervisors and other veteran officials in your area think that an OOB call can be ignored at ANY time during a game, then your supervisors and veteran officials need to give up officiating and take up broadcasting. OOB calls MUST be called at at ALL times.

Our avocation doesn't need supervisors and veteran officials like yours imo.

Big Picture? Not freaking likely!

Terrible, terrible advice.

[pizanno]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If your supervisors and other veteran officials in your area think that an OOB call can be ignored at ANY time during a game, then your supervisors and veteran officials need to give up officiating and take up broadcasting. OOB calls MUST be called at at ALL times.

Our avocation doesn't need supervisors and veteran officials like yours imo.

Big Picture? Not freaking likely!

Terrible, terrible advice.

See..this is what I love about this board. In your area, JR ("hell" according to your profile), there are no grey areas, and thus no reason to debate the call (or non-call).

In my neck of the woods, it's very different. And not because of my two cents. Because it's the commissioners that oversee the schools, then hire my supervisors, who then hire(d) our vets, who retain them and reward them with schedules and playoff assignments (with coaches input) who create and perpetute the culture and philosophy of having "common sense" in tough situations.

The context that this discussion is rooted in is 0.1 seconds and a tie game!!! If you don't see that as relevant info, then read no further.

I can appreciate about OOB not being a judgement call. But if you saw the play, it wasn't even obvious that the player stepped on the line. Even when they froze the replay and zoomed in, it wasn't clear. That's why i used the term EDGED.

I'm not a D1 men's official, but I know enough of them to know that at that level, they "apply" the rules and philosophies very differently than I do. Yes, I realize that sometimes the rest of us commoners become collateral damage because of it, but it's mostly outcry from ignorant fans or bystanders.

I'm not here to give advice, just share my perspective. There's enough opinions for everyone to take what works for them.

Until the day when you take Hank Nichols' job JR, my supervisors and colleagues will still have a job while you may continue to criticize us on how we don't deserve to wear the stripes.

Like someone else's tag says "it is what it is".

[jdw3018]

I would only say, pizanno, that the official had a better view of the boundary than any replay did, and that the official also couldn't have known there'd be 0.1 on the clock. He probably knew they were getting down to the last second or so, but there was too much action and too much scrambling in that last 4-6 seconds to know for sure.

Would it have "felt" different if there were 1.1 left instead? I say it would have to most observers.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by pizanno

Until the day when you take Hank Nichols' job JR, my supervisors and colleagues will still have a job while you may continue to criticize us on how we don't deserve to wear the stripes.

The point is that you're agreeing with Bilas that OOB calls should be ignored under certain circumstances. I commented on what you stated---> "The debate of whether this is a foul or not (OR OOB OR NOT) in the context of this single play is missing the big picture." Well, imo the biggest part of the "big picture" is whether the player actually stepped OOB or not. If he did, then something MUST be called imo, whether it's an OOB violation or a foul for pushing the player OOB. If the player didn't go OOB, then we all can argue all day whether a foul should or should not have been called and it's all moot anyway.

The funny thing though is that I haven't seen Hank Nichols, your supervisors or any of your veteran colleagues come on here and agree with your opinion. The oldest trick in the world is to say I'm right because all if these experts agree with me, without providing any proof that any of those experts actually do agree with you. Personally, I doubt very much that you could ever get Hank Nichols or any D1 supervisor to state that an OOB call could ever be a judgment call under any circumstances. That's my opinion. And until I actually see Hank Nichols, D1 supervisors and veteran D1 officials tell me that I'm wrong, I'm going to stick to my opinion.

We disagree.

[jbduke]

At a Duke site of all places. Absolutely rips the crew. The announcing crew.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=24374

[pizanno]

Point taken about agreeing with Bilas' statement. Although again, it needs context. I don't think I'm advocating that OOB calls should be ignored.

Let me put it this way:

* Have you ever "saved a foul"? Isn't that ignoring a OOB call (on top of nonfoul call)?

* Have you ever "overlooked" A1 with a toe over the endline while inbounding the ball in the backcourt to A2 while all other 8 players are in the forecourt?

* Have you ever "ignored" the coach clearly standing out of his/her box during live ball who is merely coaching?

* When two players foul an opponent at the same time, have you ever called a mulitple foul and penalized each defender with a foul, or just picked one player?

While we may disagree on the GEO/NOVA sitch, I was trying to raise the merits to the "common sense" perspective in response to the "it's a rule, so you have to call it" argument.

Of course, none of my supes or vets will agree with me here...mostly because they say only losers spend their days arguing in cyberspace and they wouldn't be caught dead publicizing their opinions in any forum, let alone a discussion board.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by pizanno

While we may disagree on the GEO/NOVA sitch, I was trying to raise the merits to the "common sense" perspective in response to the "it's a rule, so you have to call it" argument.

I'm not using the "it's a rule so you have to call it" argument. Officiating would be a heckuva lot easier if we could make it that simple, but unfortunately the game doesn't work that way. That's what makes basketball such a difficult game to officiate imo. Some rules have to be called all of the time without any possible "common sense" criteria attached to it.. Stepping OOB is one of those. Backcourt violations are another. Some rules may be applied strictly as written some of the time. Examples might be 3 seconds, 10 seconds for a FT shooter, etc. And these "some of the time" circumstances might also vary depending on different situations also.

I don't know whether that makes any sense to you or not, but that's my take on what happened. Stepping OOB is a gotta-get call. If(and the key word is "if") the player stepped on the line, then some kind of call had to be made.

Again, jmo.

[pizanno]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm not using the "it's a rule so you have to call it" argument. Officiating would be a heckuva lot easier if we could make it that simple, but unfortunately the game doesn't work that way. That's what makes basketball such a difficult game to officiate imo. Some rules have to be called all of the time without any possible "common sense" criteria attached to it.. Stepping OOB is one of those. Backcourt violations are another. Some rules may be applied strictly as written some of the time. Examples might be 3 seconds, 10 seconds for a FT shooter, etc. And these "some of the time" circumstances might also vary depending on different situations also.

I don't know whether that makes any sense to you or not, but that's my take on what happened. Stepping OOB is a gotta-get call. If(and the key word is "if") the player stepped on the line, then some kind of call had to be made.

Again, jmo.

Well gosh darn...i completely agree with you. Good night everyone, drive safe!

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Let me tell you what I had Friday night.

Granted, it happened in the 3rd quarter, and in a 10 point ball game, but it's eerily similar to what is being discussed here. I am administering the throw-in on the baseline. Blue is throwing the ball in. A1 throws to A2, right in front of A's bench. A2 receives the pass and is lightly bumped by B1, but it causes A2 to lose his balance and step out of bounds. My partner, a first year V official, at trail starts to give the ball back to blue for an inbounds play. Of course, B is saying that it should be there ball. I get together with my partner and tell him that we have one of 2 things that have to happen. Either white gets the ball, due to the OOB violation, or he has to call a foul against B1. Although this didn't come up in the discussion, at this point I don't think he knew who he would have called the foul on, and neither did I. We ended up giving the ball to B. Coach A didn't say much about it. After all, he had a 10 point lead at the time. And they ended up winning by 6.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by pizanno

See..this is what I love about this board. In your area, JR ("hell" according to your profile), there are no grey areas, and thus no reason to debate the call (or non-call).

In every place I've ever worked, "grey areas" don't apply to out of bounds plays or situations, in any of the three sports I work, at any of the levels I work at. I'm going to go ahead and sit on my hands here at my desk and not move until any supervisor or assignor (with any credibility) says that an OB violation should simply be ignored in that, or any situation. I'll see you all in the morning. I'll just be here, sitting on my hands - because that will never happen.

If there are officials who don't agree with how this call was made, it's fine, in theory, (despite they're making everyone else's jobs harder) because those officials aren't ever going to work at that level (what JRut said about the video updates on ESO is dead-on - and you could probably find at least one from about every year in the archives on both the men's and women's side that addresses these types of plays, and how they want them called fouls) - or if they do, and blow this call, they'll be done working at that level (or at least in that conference).

Poor defense. Good call. Rant off.

[APG]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3242789

"There is no force-out rule and if [Wallace] was forced out, he either was bumped for a foul or he stepped out of bounds," Hyland said.

"When a kid is bumped and goes out of bounds, you have to make a call. It's a judgment call."


Hyland said the timing of the foul does not matter.
"A foul is a foul," Hyland said. "It's a judgment situation."

[RefAHallic]

I love those guys and the show, but come on...the player was bumped enough to cause him to go out of bounds. As Bilas said, it is unfortunate that the game had to end that way. However, you don't call the foul then the other alternative is the GU player OOB. Villanova then gets the ball with a chance to win. The call in the Tenn/Rutgers game was the one everyone should be up in arms about.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jbduke

At a Duke site of all places. Absolutely rips the crew. The announcing crew.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=24374

I have no idea whether I could ever agree with what the author was eventually going to say. I gave up trying to read it after the first few sentences. What a pretentious little prick.

Typical Dookie.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by pizanno

In the context of the entire game, this was not a good call.

I actually like Bilas and have always thought he is the most knowledgable about officiating.

His best comments during this post-game were pointing out that:

1) the contact when Nova was driving for the winning basket was more severe than the last foul.

2) when 75 feet from the bucket and less than a couple seconds left, the contact has no advantage

3) if you can ignore the foul, you can ignore the toe (EDGING) the line and let's go to overtime

I'd bet my left nut that if you asked that official if he liked that call, he'd say no.

Well, it's likely you have one remaining. Which is good unless you want to be Frankie Valli's understudy.