When is a dribble a dribble?

[Back In The Saddle]

A1 shoots and the rebound is batted around a bit, B1 bats it toward mid-court where A2 finally secures control by beginning a dribble with the bouncing ball, by which I mean that the ball was still bouncing and rather than pick up, then start a dribble, A2 is able to get the bouncing ball under control by dribbling it. However, his very first push (a dribble is begun by pushing the ball to the floor, right?) dribbles the ball on the center dividing line. I call backcourt, then allow the players, lack of sleep and those darned voices in my head to talk me out of it.

Looking back, my question is this: In a situation where a player controls a loose ball by beginning a dribble, where does the dribble (and thus control) really begin? Is it on the first push to the ground? Or does it require a second push to demonstrate that he's actually got it under control?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
A1 shoots and the rebound is batted around a bit, B1 bats it toward mid-court where A2 finally secures control by beginning a dribble with the bouncing ball

Ok...

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
by which I mean that the ball was still bouncing and rather than pick up, then start a dribble, A2 is able to get the bouncing ball under control by dribbling it.

I follow ya.

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
However, his very first push (a dribble is begun by pushing the ball to the floor, right?)

I do believe that's what the rule says.

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
dribbles the ball on the center dividing line. I call backcourt

Survey says: eah! Inadvertant whistle.

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
then allow the players, lack of sleep and those darned voices in my head to talk me out of it.

Good.

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
Looking back, my question is this: In a situation where a player controls a loose ball by beginning a dribble, where does the dribble (and thus control) really begin? Is it on the first push to the ground? Or does it require a second push to demonstrate that he's actually got it under control?

The rule, AIR, is that a dribble is a force of the ball to the floor. When the ball hit the DL, A cannot be the first to touch the ball.

I was the shot clock operator while in University and this exact play happened in front of me, but involved a defender pushing the ball to the floor in a controlled motion, in an effort to steal the ball. On the next dribble, team A got the ball back again. I reset the shot clock twice - because of changes of possession. The CC blew the play dead and came over to ask why I did that. I told him and he agreed that a dribble, clearly defined, does not mention the ball having to hit the floor. He did not force me to reset to the time left before the first reset.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[SamIAm]

BITS, I don't think that is a BC violation, based on lack of team control, therefore no FC status of the ball. With no FC status of the ball, FC status is gained by having 3 points in FC due to the dribble. (I am not sure what you actually called). Being forthright, I must say I might have not been able to think fast enough to not call it in a game.

Now to your question - What would you have done if the player had picked-up the ball then started a dribble or touched the ball with the other hand after the questionable start of a dribble? YHTBT

[Back In The Saddle]

I'm going to simply claim that my brain was abducted by aliens. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Of course I blew the BC call. Even if you consider that the first dribble constitued player control, and thus team control, it was gained in back court (by virtue of dribbling on the dividing line) and therefore the BC rule doesn't come into play because the ball has never been in team A's possession in front court. When my brain is returned, I'll flog myself then write Tony's four BC criteria 100 times.

Of course there isn't time to think through the criteria in real time. I think what threw me was that the ball came from A's front court and then A2 dribbled it on the dividing line. The whistle went off in auto-pilot mode.