son refs fathers game,legal?

[Dahlia Weinzoff]

I am looking for some direction, possible a rule book, website, citation, etc.

My husband coached our 8th grade son in a local recreation basketball league. There were two teenage officials. One official was the opposing coaches son. (His wife kept the book). We feel the game was not called fairly. One of our players was knocked to the ground and hit in the face. My husband raised his voice two times to protest calls. (one was with 30 seconds left and it was a one point game). He was given two technical fouls by the coaches refereee son, ejected from the game, and suspended from coaching two games.

According to the Upper Saddle River basketball association, there is no rule book. What about the referee training? My daughter ref'd soccer and said that she would not be able to ref her fathers game unless the other coach agreed before the game.

We are just looking to write a letter protesting what happened, and are looking for some offical game or referee related rule that we can cite.

My husband is a well respected coach and was appalled with the refs behavior. He was ejected from the gym with 30 seconds left of play, a 1 point game, as my husband was walking out of the gym and another father was walking to the coaches area, the coaches wife who is keeping the book, told her son the ref that one of our players had five fouls. She did not tell anyone on our team, the player did not know, and next thing you know, the other team spent the last half minute shooting teachnical fouls shots to win the game.

I'd appreciate any help you can give us.
Thanks
Dahlia
Upper Saddle River
Bergen County, New Jersey

[Adam]

Whether there are restrictions on family relationships between coaches and officials is going to be up to your league.
Assuming that the ref's behavior was inappropriate, you may just have to chalk it up to his youth and being easily bullied by his dad. However, when you say "raised his voice," do you mean he yelled at the refs? Or that he spoke loudly enough to be heard?
Finally, the end of your post leaves some room for question. Are you saying that they issued technical fouls for the player playing with 5 fouls?
If so, that is not the rule. This should not have been a technical foul. You simply notify the coach and remove the player. The player is not disqualified until the coach is notified of the 5th foul.
That said, if this is indicative of the league you are in, you may have to consider withdrawing.

[Woodee]

Originally posted by Dahlia Weinzoff
I am looking for some direction, possible a rule book, website, citation, etc.

My husband coached our 8th grade son in a local recreation basketball league. There were two teenage officials. One official was the opposing coaches son. (His wife kept the book). We feel the game was not called fairly. One of our players was knocked to the ground and hit in the face. My husband raised his voice two times to protest calls. (one was with 30 seconds left and it was a one point game). He was given two technical fouls by the coaches refereee son, ejected from the game, and suspended from coaching two games.

According to the Upper Saddle River basketball association, there is no rule book. What about the referee training? My daughter ref'd soccer and said that she would not be able to ref her fathers game unless the other coach agreed before the game.

We are just looking to write a letter protesting what happened, and are looking for some offical game or referee related rule that we can cite.

My husband is a well respected coach and was appalled with the refs behavior. He was ejected from the gym with 30 seconds left of play, a 1 point game, as my husband was walking out of the gym and another father was walking to the coaches area, the coaches wife who is keeping the book, told her son the ref that one of our players had five fouls. She did not tell anyone on our team, the player did not know, and next thing you know, the other team spent the last half minute shooting teachnical fouls shots to win the game.

I'd appreciate any help you can give us.
Thanks
Dahlia
Upper Saddle River
Bergen County, New Jersey

Ma'am,

This is difficult to answer because you state there is no rulebook.

In Rec ball people forget its a game. Your kid, husband then you should take it as FUN, WIN OR LOSE , even with questionable officiating.

You and your husband should ask yourselves what does your son feel about B-Ball after this.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dahlia Weinzoff
I am looking for some direction, possible a rule book, website, citation, etc.

You will not find anything but opinions here. This is not covered.

Originally posted by Dahlia Weinzoff
My husband coached our 8th grade son in a local recreation basketball league. There were two teenage officials. One official was the opposing coaches son. (His wife kept the book). We feel the game was not called fairly. One of our players was knocked to the ground and hit in the face. My husband raised his voice two times to protest calls. (one was with 30 seconds left and it was a one point game). He was given two technical fouls by the coaches refereee son, ejected from the game, and suspended from coaching two games.

According to the Upper Saddle River basketball association, there is no rule book.

This is a local issue. There is nothing that any rulebook that I am aware of covers this issue. Each state, each league has a set of conduct and participation rules that can be widely different. Most of here only deal with HS and College ball. So we cannot answer your question, unless someone is familiar with this league.

Originally posted by Dahlia Weinzoff

What about the referee training? My daughter ref'd soccer and said that she would not be able to ref her fathers game unless the other coach agreed before the game.

Refer to what I said above. But considering this is a "local" rec. league, not sure that is always possible.

Originally posted by Dahlia Weinzoff

We are just looking to write a letter protesting what happened, and are looking for some offical game or referee related rule that we can cite.

You can only do it on the basis of your league's rules. Nothing we can answer.

Originally posted by Dahlia Weinzoff

My husband is a well respected coach and was appalled with the refs behavior. He was ejected from the gym with 30 seconds left of play, a 1 point game, as my husband was walking out of the gym and another father was walking to the coaches area, the coaches wife who is keeping the book, told her son the ref that one of our players had five fouls. She did not tell anyone on our team, the player did not know, and next thing you know, the other team spent the last half minute shooting teachnical fouls shots to win the game.

This is a one sided story. It is basically their word against yours. You need to take this up with the League Administrators, not us. For one, someone assigned the game and that is the person to talk to. Because leagues like this have usually very inexperienced officials and officials that are just learning. Mainly that is because the officials that have experience might have college or other obligations surrounding their schedule. Most officials doing these type of leagues at this time of the year, are ones that are not licensed with the state or they are working on typical off days.

Also, your husband should have known better. That is not the time to get a T and certainly not the time to have a meltdown if you want to win the game. You had a chance until that incident. He should have got that earlier in the game if he was so disgusted.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Dahlia Weinzoff
My husband is a well respected coach and was appalled with the refs behavior.

That doesn't make your husband's behavior any less appalling. We have no way of knowing whether the officiating was bad or not. But your husband sets a bad example for his kids by yelling at the officials.

There is no basketball rule that addresses this situation. It would have to be addressed by a league rule. But, evidently, since the young man was officiating the game, there isn't a rule against it.

Now, it is inappropriate for an official to officiate a close family member's game, no question. If there's a league board, then you should bring the situation to their attention, so hopefully, it won't happen in the future.

But don't look for the suspension to be overturned. That's not going to happen.

Sounds like bad behavior by a lot of adults, which is unfortunate for the kids involved.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Dahlia Weinzoff
I am looking for some direction, possible a rule book, website, citation, etc.

According to the Upper Saddle River basketball association, there is no rule book. What about the referee training? My daughter ref'd soccer and said that she would not be able to ref her fathers game unless the other coach agreed before the game.

I'd appreciate any help you can give us.
Thanks
Dahlia
Upper Saddle River
Bergen County, New Jersey

Dahlia

True, all is best if the officials are not related to the players or coaches. But in recreational league game refs are much harder to come by than coaches. What your husband needs to learn is that under no circumstances should he be yelling at teen aged refs during 8th grade rec league games. Bad bad bad. Those kids should be congratulated for "taking care of business", your husband just needs to calm down and enjoy himself during these games. If I was responsible for training those refs I would be quite proud of how they handled this.

FWIW, my older son spent time reffing these types of games as a teen (still a teen but currently too wrapped up in other things to ref right now). He T'ed a coach who then complained to the league director. The director told him if he's going to yell at kids during a rec game then he doesn't want him as a coach and he was kicked out of the league. Keep this in mind.

[williebfree]

Assuming that your presentation of this incident is unbiased, I would say that it is UNETHICAL for this young official to be on the court with his father coaching a team (which most likely has the official's brother as a player too.)


Like BktBallRef indicated, I doubt you will get any remedial action. However, by following through with your disappointment you will become better informed about the league's policies regarding this issue and hopefully prevent future problems.

Best wishes!

Willie

[SMEngmann]

My only question would be: how did you know that the opposing coach's son was one of the refs? This is the main reason why referees should not accept games in which they have a real or perceived conflict of interest. For all I know, the referees called a strong game and your husband for some reason (maybe not enough: "over the back" or "three seconds" called "both ways") felt slighted. If I had to guess what happened given my dealings with coaches and my basic knowledge of the situation, your husband probably got too loud and earned the first T, then, out of frustration, mentioned the family connection, buying him his 2nd T. Obviously I wasn't there and the officiating easily could have been horrible. In that case, bite your tongue, get the officials' names and the name of the assignor and lodge a complaint. This is not an excuse for being ejected (I'm sure that's the last thing the ref wanted to do in this type of awkward game).

[canuckrefguy]

There are only a few undisputed FACTS here.

By FACTS, I mean things not possibly affected by someone's particular point of view:

1) One of the officials was related to the coach of your husband's opponent.
2) Your husband was ejected for getting 2 direct technical fouls.
3) Your league has a rule that mandates a 2-game suspension for coaches who are ejected from a game.

There is nothing in any of the major official BASKETBALL rules in use regarding whether a son can officiate his dad's game. Only a league can have that kind of rule. And if it doesn't, you are likely out of luck. There OUGHT to be a rule, however. But sometimes it's tough to get officials (scenarios like this are some of the biggest reasons why), so such a rule would do more harm than good.

Your letter of protest can really only address one issue: whether officials are allowed to work games where their relatives are participating.

Whether the officiating was correct, biased, incompetent, or whatever, is, for general purposes, irrelevant to this discussion. Only people that were there can fairly comment on it - and even then, you'll likely solve nothing.

Agree with BBR, sounds like a lot of adults overshadowing the kids' fun here.

[Edited by canuckrefguy on Jan 11th, 2004 at 11:19 PM]

[Mregor]

Originally posted by Dahlia Weinzoff
According to the Upper Saddle River basketball association, there is no rule book.

Must be some sort of local rules since they disqualified your husband for 2 games.

Mregor