39 ways to balk

[Blaine Gallant]

Well said Garth.

I agree 100%.

At lower levels, I do a lot of "teaching". There is no sense in calling 20 balks. We are there to TEACH the kids. And Warren, at house league levels, don't give me this, "you are the umpire, not the coach stuff" More often than not, I know more about coaching then the coaches and usually they appreciate the help.

Now, at higher levels, call it. This past weekend, I was working a National qualification tournament in Junior (18-21 yr olds). In my first game, six balks, five on the same pitcher for not pausing. Game two, two balks - same reason. Next game, one. After a while, the teams learned that we were calling these things closely. In total, 9 balks in 5 games. Nine balks is more than I had last year. But, this is competative ball with men - well, they shave but they are not mature yet!

Blaine

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by jicecone
Warren,

If man could live by "Words" alone, you would have already have mastered life.

However, real life just doesn't support your black and white philosophy. It sounds good and may work for you, but most of the time it just isn't practical. In all due respect, good luck.

I guess you're suggesting that I only TALK a good game. I suspect the problem is in our different social sources of reference. I thought I had made it clear that at lower levels, especially in juniors 14 and under or instructional leagues, I believe there is a valid case not to balk everything. But as Garth correctly points out, in adult leagues, regardless of the level, our job is to call the game by the rules.

I don't know your level or experience, and my guess is that you probably haven't read my bio at Officiating.com either. If you had then you'd know I've had a lot of experience practicing what I preach. I have seldom called games at Under 16's and below, except for Regional, State and National championships. At such times we are expected to call what we see - except for Under 12's where balks of any type are specifically and justifiably excluded.

I don't know what Blaine means by a "House League" either, but my guess is he's talking about some lower level local LL-style competition, or maybe a sort of instructional league. If that's what you're calling then your approach of calling only the obvious balks and warning for the others is probably exactly what's required.

OTOH, everywhere else umpires cannot afford the luxury of picking and choosing what rules, or parts of rules, they will enforce. To do so is not good for the game or its officials. Why? Because the next week another umpire comes along with a different set of standards. And the week after you'll get an umpire with a third set of standards. Before you know it your association is being reviled as one totally devoid of consistency in enforcement or interpretation. That's BAD for everyone.

You may not agree with my philosophy and that's your right. But to suggest that my approach is impractical just doesn't fit with the facts. I've called 12 Regional and 2 National Championship series, including calling the plate in the Final of the 1998 Commonwealth Cup - the Australian Senior Provincial Championship. I have called the top division of two District Leagues from my 2nd year as an umpire. I have called 5 years of State League at the equivalent standard of AA-AAA Minors in the US. In fact, some of the players I called in State League are now playing professionally in the US, and one is playing Major League for the Mariners. I must have been doing something right in practice to have survived at that level for so long.

There are those on this board who will tell you that I have previously gone to bat to argue that certain types of balk should definitely NOT be called in certain specific circumstances. I've also argued that where rule enforcement and the maintenance of discipline and order compete with each other, the latter is the more important responsibility of the two. So you can see that I'm not entirely inflexible or hide-bound by the rule book in that regard.

All the same, I believe umpires must get shed of any notion that they can do what they like with the rules once they take charge on the diamond. They can't. They have a responsibility to conduct the game in accordance with the rules AND to maintain discipline and order on the playing field. [OBR 9.01(a)]. If that's too tough of an assignment for an individual to handle then in my view that individual shouldn't be an umpire.

Cheers

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Blaine Gallant
Well said Garth.

I agree 100%.

At lower levels, I do a lot of "teaching". There is no sense in calling 20 balks. We are there to TEACH the kids. And Warren, at house league levels, don't give me this, "you are the umpire, not the coach stuff" More often than not, I know more about coaching then the coaches and usually they appreciate the help. ...[snip]...

I agree with Garth too! I thought that's what I said and Garth was actually agreeing with me! *grin*

I don't understand the term "house league". If you mean a sort of adult recreational league, I seldom see those. All the same, we can't take the chance of failing to enforce the rules at any level. If someone is injured because we elected NOT to penalise an infraction then we could be held liable for the consequences.

It isn't our job to "help" the coaches. If you adopt that approach there is a chance you will unduly influence the outcome. Leave the coaching to the coaches, no matter how incompentent they may be in your view. I'm not averse to helping "teach" kids (and their coaches) at 14U juniors and below. But above that level I believe I owe it to the players of both sides to call the game the way the rules require - in both the letter AND the spirit wherever possible. I believe ALL of my fellow umpires also owe their league and the game that same duty.

Cheers

[jicecone]

Actually Warre,n I was paying you a compliment. Despite any disagreement we may have, you are a good writer.

I too agree with Garth, but probably like most of the guys on this Forum, I deal with the day in and day out baseball from American Legion and below. Working full time as an Engineer limits my College games in the Spring and Fall. A majority of the games are NOT D1v 1 games. Bottom line, most of the ball is not that good. They play in respectable Leagues, however the talent is just not there, compared to the Leagues you work.

Therefore the approach I suggested (which works for me), was tempered to the type of ball I mostly officiate.

[David B]

Originally posted by jicecone
Actually Warre,n I was paying you a compliment. Despite any disagreement we may have, you are a good writer.

I too agree with Garth, but probably like most of the guys on this Forum, I deal with the day in and day out baseball from American Legion and below. Working full time as an Engineer limits my College games in the Spring and Fall. A majority of the games are NOT D1v 1 games. Bottom line, most of the ball is not that good. They play in respectable Leagues, however the talent is just not there, compared to the Leagues you work.

Therefore the approach I suggested (which works for me), was tempered to the type of ball I mostly officiate.

Most of the time that we call a balk though the coaches usually know exactly what the kid has done.

Usually because he has done that and had it called or he has gotten away with it all season.

I would rather our umpires call the balks, thus when we get to playoff and tournament baseball we are not having to call them at that level.

IMO that speaks poorly of the officials during the season.

However, every summer and now with tournaments coming up we will see it often.

But that's with HS and above. In the younger ages it can be done but only if you have a group of officials that work together during the season to educate the coaches and pitchers.

With the shortage of umpires today that is very tough.

Thanks
David

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by jicecone
Actually Warre,n I was paying you a compliment. Despite any disagreement we may have, you are a good writer.

I too agree with Garth, but probably like most of the guys on this Forum, I deal with the day in and day out baseball from American Legion and below. Working full time as an Engineer limits my College games in the Spring and Fall. A majority of the games are NOT D1v 1 games. Bottom line, most of the ball is not that good. They play in respectable Leagues, however the talent is just not there, compared to the Leagues you work.

Therefore the approach I suggested (which works for me), was tempered to the type of ball I mostly officiate.

Thank you for the compliment.

I'm starting to sound like Peter Osborne with all the plugs, but I've just submitted a 3-part series to Officiating.com on Baseball in Australia, which should help a lot of you guys to understand the game in my country. I don't really know what American Legion standard roughly equates with down here, but I have called for a couple of touring college teams from Denver Colorado and as I remember the best standard I saw was at or above Div 1 of our District League. I don't really know whether they were good or ordinary D1 or Dx College teams that toured. I remember one team was thumped by a hot Under 18's Regional squad, but the other absolutely ploughed through a below average District League All-Star outfit.

Just remember, Jim, I didn't really say your approach was necessarily WRONG - only that there were several identifiable problems with following it. If it works for you and your league, and doesn't result in inconsistency from official to official, that's probably all that matters.

Cheers

[Edited by Warren Willson on Jul 1st, 2003 at 09:42 AM]

[His High Holiness]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Warren Willson

I don't know your level or experience, and my guess is that you probably haven't read my bio at Officiating.com either. If you had then you'd know I've had a lot of experience practicing what I preach. I have seldom called games at Under 16's and below, except for Regional, State and National championships. At such times we are expected to call what we see - except for Under 12's where balks of any type are specifically and justifiably excluded.

You may not agree with my philosophy and that's your right. But to suggest that my approach is impractical just doesn't fit with the facts. I've called 12 Regional and 2 National Championship series, including calling the plate in the Final of the 1998 Commonwealth Cup - the Australian Senior Provincial Championship. I have called the top division of two District Leagues from my 2nd year as an umpire. I have called 5 years of State League at the equivalent standard of AA-AAA Minors in the US. In fact, some of the players I called in State League are now playing professionally in the US, and one is playing Major League for the Mariners. I must have been doing something right in practice to have survived at that level for so long.

Cheers

Warren;

I am not trying to open old wounds but I feel some clarifications are in order regarding your resume.

In late May 2003, Blaine Gallant wrote me to tell me about a new league that was starting in Canada. Blaine had been selected to assign the umpires for the games that played in his province. He was told that the games would be of AA minor league quality. I wrote him back to answer some questions and what follows is a part of the letter. You might want to substitute the word "Australia", in the letter wherever you see the word "Canada." For my thoughts could just as easily apply down under.

-----------------

Blaine;

....

"I umpire over an area containing 15-20 million people from North Carolina to southern Pennsylvania. In that area, there are perhaps 10 teams that play ball at the single A level or better, (not counting the Orioles or Phillies). This is in baseball crazed America and I am counting some of the top NCAA D1 teams in order to bring up the total. Even better, there are 50 or so top umpires for me to mentor from, any of which are probably better than the best umpire in Canada outside the Major Leagues. 15-20 million is close the population of all of Canada and the best athletes there play hockey. I still believe that all you umpire is the equivalent of what we call Industrial League Baseball and even with that I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Finally, don't let anyone tell you that a AA team is coming to your town unless you have experienced it for yourself. When starting leagues in other countries, the promoters often inflate the quality of the league in order to sell tickets. You need to ask yourself the following question:

Why would a wannabe major leaguer play AA ball in an off label league in Canada, when he could play AA ball in America and get noticed for AAA ball? He wouldn't, that's what. Furthermore, he would rather play single A ball in the US with a chance to move up. Most likely your so called "AA" league is composed of sub-single A players and old has beens on their way down. That sounds exactly like what we call Industrial League Baseball. It's a place for good players to play who don't qualify for single A ball and cannot give up the dream.

Peter

-----------------------

Near the end of June, Blaine wrote me back to tell me that indeed, the baseball of this supposed AA league was truly awful and he did not care if he ever called a game in the league. It was not anywhere near AA quality which is exactly what I had predicted.

A couple years ago or so, I wrote you essentially the same thing in a public forum and I admit that at the time, I did it for the purpose of stirring the pot. I wrote that "attack" at the instigation of a minor league umpire and an NCAA assignor who had read your writings and had some grave doubts about what kind of baseball you worked.

They were the ones who came up with the idea and the statistics which were the underpinnings of my arguement. They used me as the stalking horse because a minor league umpire and NCAA assignor cannot take a chance in a public forum like this. After all, at the time neither had been to Australia and maybe, just maybe, there is good baseball in Australia. Since then, one of them has been to Australia and reports that the best baseball there is less than single A quality.

Before you respond to his judgement, you need to ask yourself the following question:

Why would a single A or better player play anywhere but in the US? Only the US or Japan can provide him the super salaries or economic payoff. Therefore, that is where he will go to be noticed.

I have talked to several major league scouts since our dustup of a couple of years ago. They assure me that the major leagues travel the globe looking for good talent and if there were any AA players in Australia or anywhere else, they have been offered positions in the American minor leagues. The economic incentives are just too great not to play in America. The toughest challenge facing foreign baseball players in America is the language barrier and that would not apply to Canadians or Australians so your players would jump at the chance.

It is simply not relevant to quote the number of players that you have called for and then seen go to the minor or major leagues. I have called dozens of players that have obtained contracts by the minor leagues but I have never called a AA game. One player that I umpired has even completed his major league career and retired. (Pete Shoureck, sp) I even threw his old man out of a couple of games. So what.

I will grant you one thing however. Australia, unlike Canada) has a reverse season from the US so a few players might travel there over the winter months. However, most US players travel to Latin America for the winter months if they want to keep playing. Many players, however, find that their bodies need a rest and their wallets need replenishing with real work.

Warren, unlike the original discussion of a couple of years ago, I am NOT attacking your integrity. I believe however, that you have been misled by the promoters in Australia. In my letter to Blaine, I encouraged him to come to the US and see real minor league baseball before making any judgement about what kind of baseball he was seeing. I also told him that with the right recommendations he could call ball in the Cape Cod League (a D1 summer league in New England that is only a few hundred miles from where he lives. I know the assignor of the league and have been offered the opportunity to work there so I might be able to put in a good word.) I might encourage you to do the same thing but I recognize that it may not be practical from your standpoint.

Finally, I have read the whole thread regarding balks and I beleive that there is a cultural disconnect between Australia and America. Your observations may not apply here. There is a different level of expectation and informality in America that may not exist in Australia. This is NOT meant to put your country down. It is just to say that we are different.

Peter




[Edited by His High Holiness on Jul 1st, 2003 at 10:48 AM]

[Whowefoolin]

Lonewolf,

I wouldn't be "looking" for balks. Call them if they occur. If you start "looking" then everything looks like a balk.

If you see something out of the ordinary while calling balls/strikes, then pay attention to that.

Some crew work that the BU watches from the waste up, the PU watches the feet.

Just the other day had a game where the pitcher was turning his shoulder slightly to first with man on. I never noticed from 60+ feet. Then around the 4th inning, I noticed it, watched for it and balked him. Problem fixed.

No one hooted or hollered. It just caught the eye.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Whowefoolin
Lonewolf,

I wouldn't be "looking" for balks. Call them if they occur. If you start "looking" then everything looks like a balk.

I would disagree with this statement.
To correct your statement I'd rephrase to state:

Dont be looking to be calling balks.

It's our job to see and know balks when they occur, but we frequently make decisions to ignore technical balks in amateur baseball when no advantage is gained or attempted to be gained. In such instances a warning allows the game to be determined by the players; not the umpires. IMO, that's good officiating.

The same is true regarding interference and obstruction. Look to see it, but don't look strictly for the mere intent to call it. It doesn't take a trained eye to determine that interference has occurred when R2 runs over F6 attempting to field a batted ball. However, it may take the trained eye to realize that when R2 is forced to 3B, and he slows down to do the mambo in front of F6 and in the path of the ball, that interference has occurred when R2 takes off running again just before the ball arrives. Many will not comprehend that as interference and will attempt to excuse it as R2's fear of being hit with the batted ball.

When you are looking to call infractions, you will find both those that exist and those that don't. When you attempt to understand advantage/disadvantage as related to the rules, you will be a far better official of amateur sport. Still, you need to have the knowledge of what is and what isn't an infraction in order to be aware of whether an infraction occurred. Then, you must be able to see and judge if it occurred before making any decision of whether or not to call it.

Infractions are overlooked regularly in amateur sport when no advantage is gained or meant to be gained. Your decisions on what you do and don't call will build your reputation and lead to your success or lack of as an amateur official---regardless of what idealists may state on the internet.
Idealists may need to discover reality......



Just my opinion,

Freix

[GarthB]

HHH posted:

(Well, it's too long to copy.)



Peter:


As with any argument based, even loosely, on stats, yours may have some holes in it. I don't have the time to investigate this thoroughly, although it intriques me enough to put on my winter "to do list", but some thoughts that come to mind initially:

It is possible that with as few teams as Warren compares to our minor leagues, there could be a proportionate number of players who move on to the majors....at least for a while.

We have 102 minor league teams, not counting the Rookie League. (Sub Single A) How many of these players will make it to the show? What percentage is that of total players?

How many teamns does Warren refer to as minor league compatible? How many of those players make it to the show?
(I would even add a factor for less visibilty. I know the Aussie on the Mariners claims that there are several more back home as good as many ML players. National pride? maybe)

Your argument of population size determining the number of talented performers may also have some deficiencies...it certainly does when it comes to other skills such a music, painting, soccer.

I'm am not attempting to prolong this thread any more than it already has been. Warren has been to this country. He's seen our ball and he's seen his. His opinions are not based on third party descriptions. At this point, until the numbers are in and my visit to Australia completed, I cannot take your position at face value.

[Edited by GarthB on Jul 1st, 2003 at 01:01 PM]

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by GarthB




Peter:


As with any argument based, even loosely, on stats, yours may have some holes in it. I don't have the time to investigate this thoroughly, although it intriques me enough to put on my winter "to do list", but some thoughts that come to mind initially:

It is possible that with as few teams as Warren compares to our minor leagues, there could be a proportionate number of players who move on to the majors....at least for a while.

We have 102 minor league teams, not counting the Rookie League. (Sub Single A) How many of these players will make it to the show? What percentage is that of total players?

How many teamns does Warren refer to as minor league compatible? How many of those players make it to the show.
(I would even add a factor or less visibilty. I know the Aussie on the Mariners claims that there are several more back home as good as many ML players. National pride? maybe)

Your argument of population size determining the number of talented performers may also have some deficiencies...it certainly does when it comes to other skills such a music, painting, soccer.

I'm am not attemptingt to proliong this thread and more than it already has been. Warren has been to this country. He's seen our ball and he's seen his. His opinions are not based on third party descriptions. At this point, until the numbers are in and my visit to Australia completed, I cannot take your position at face value.

Garth;

The numbers and stats are of secondary importance to the whole argument. I mentioned them as a possible explanation for the main argument, to wit: The PRIMARY question which I posed was:

Why would a player of single A quality or better continue to play ball in Australia? Economics and self interest demand that he go to America. Furthermore, economics and self interest demand that a scout would recruit him. Do you know of any MLB teams in win-at-all-cost America that would pass up on good players? Do you think that the Dodgers hired Jackie Robinson in the 1940's because they wanted to do be good citizens and promote civil rights? Not likely. They wanted to win, pure and simple, and they recognized that good talent was going to waste.

To bring this up to date, you wrote

"I know the Aussie on the Mariners claims that there are several more back home as good as many ML players."

If this is true, then Aussies must have a special brand of altruism not found anywhere else in the human race. Here is this Utopian country where ballplayers routinely pass up million dollar contracts all for the love of the game and country. Furthermore, jingoistic American owners routinely pass them by in favor of inferior American talent.

I can't buy any of that. If there was untapped talent in Australia of even AA quality, American owners would be dangling hundreds of thousands of dollars in signing bonuses in front of their faces. And just like players from Mexico, Venuzuela, the Dominican Republic, etc, the Aussie boys would sign on the dotted line and fly to America.

Unless of course, their brains are wired differently from the rest of the human race. If that is the case, then Australia is so different from America that Warren's musings on umpiring are irrelevant to the American game. :)

Peter

[Bfair]

And the hockey players in Texas may be the best we have. Who knows, there might even be one that could play professionally. The same is likely true in comparing officials.

But I'm sure Canada would find it ludicrous if, as a group, we started comparing Texas hockey to Canadian hockey---in terms of both quality of players and quality of officials.

The numbers playing hockey in Texas don't compare to the numbers in Canada playing hockey. It's likely that at all levels of play, Texas couldn't shake a stick at the Canadians in hockey. I'd hazard a guess that our state champions could easily be beaten by mere local champions of a Canadian area.

Therefore, Garth, to announce officiating the state championship of Texas hockey may be no different than announcing you've been chosen to officiate a local championship where the game is played in much greater numbers. In areas where the game is played in far greater numbers, there are many that officiate local championships, and far greater competition in reaching national recognition.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[GarthB]

Friex wrote:

Therefore, Garth, to announce officiating the state championship of Texas hockey may be no different than announcing you've been chosen to officiate a local championship where the game is played in much greater numbers. In areas where the game is played in far greater numbers, there are many that officiate local championships, and far greater competition in reaching national recognition.

I don't know why you have addressed this to me. I am not making any argument based on population or numbers. I was merely using one of Peter's arguments and looking at from a different angle.

Like I said in my post, I do not have the time to examine this closely at this time, but as a former market research specialist, it does intrique me. Hopefully, I can find some meaningful data over the winter. I still find Peter's suppositions, just that, suppositions with no basis in fact. This is not say that they may not be true, it is saying that they are not necessarily true.

No one, including myself, seems to have anything beyond anecdotal evidence to present.

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by His High Holiness
Warren;

I am not trying to open old wounds but I feel some clarifications are in order regarding your resume.

...[snip]...

Why would a wannabe major leaguer play AA ball in an off label league in Canada, when he could play AA ball in America and get noticed for AAA ball? He wouldn't, that's what. Furthermore, he would rather play single A ball in the US with a chance to move up. Most likely your so called "AA" league is composed of sub-single A players and old has beens on their way down. That sounds exactly like what we call Industrial League Baseball. It's a place for good players to play who don't qualify for single A ball and cannot give up the dream.

You'd be surprised. Your first mistake is in thinking about playing professionally from an American's perspective. Our baseball players are not the heros and idols to our fans that they are to yours. Baseball is NOT our "national pastime".

That said, there are currently 78 Australians playing professionally in the USA (March 2003 figures). There are another 64 playing non-professionally and for independent leagues and a further 59 playing within the US College system. Those are ABF figures obtained from the ABF Aussies Overseas web site. You may want to verify the facts of their teams and levels for yourself by clicking on the link provided. For every one of those I would guess, and it is ONLY a guess, there would be at least 3 or more who never venture outside the boundaries of their own country except on representative tours. They may easily be capable of playing the game at US Minor or Major League standards, but baseball just isn't the all-consuming passion for most of us that it is for even the lowliest of your guys. That's partly why you find my estimates of the comparitive standard so hard to swallow, I'm sure.

Think about what an Aussie kid must go through to play professionally in the USA, that American kids usually don't have to suffer. They have to move thousands of miles from home to another country for months on end with no prospect of seeing family or friends in the meantime. The cost alone is staggering, and many just don't see the opportunity as justifying the cost long term. Don't be mislead into thinking it is an all-expenses paid junket! Often their families have mortgaged their homes and invested thousands upon thousands of dollars to support their representative career and get them to a standard that a scout might be interested in them. OTOH South American baseball players are no less passionate than your own, and the money would be a huge incentive for them. Even the pitiful salaries at A and AA level are probably better than many of them might be used to at home. Australians in general are far less passionate about the game, and are usually fortunate enough to have a lifestyle that affords them the luxury of not always choosing the money over other attractions - no altruism required.

A couple years or so ago I wrote you essentially the same thing in a public forum and I admit that at the time, I did it for the purpose of stirring the pot. I wrote that "attack" at the instigation of a minor league umpire and an NCAA assignor who had read your writings and had some grave doubts about what kind of baseball you worked.

They were the ones who came up with the idea and the statistics which were the underpinnings of my arguement. They used me as the stalking horse because a minor league umpire and NCAA assignor cannot take a chance in a public forum like this. After all, at the time neither had been to Australia and maybe, just maybe, there is good baseball in Australia. Since then, one of them has been to Australia and reports that the best baseball there is less than single A quality.

First question I'd want to ask that guy is what part of Australia did he visit, and what level of ball did he see? Also during what season did he visit? And how many games did he see in how many cities? How can anyone make a single visit to a country the geographical size of the USA, watch a few games of ball and conclude on that basis that "the best baseball there is less than single A quality"? With all due respect, that's just nonsense. I'd believe that the best baseball he SAW may have been less than single A quality, but we don't know exactly what he saw or where, do we?

There are VAST differences in standard across the country. For example, the baseball played at State League level in Sydney or Melbourne is so far ahead of State League level anywhere else as to be virtually incomparable. In fact, I'd also say that State League in Melbourne was probably even better than State League in Sydney, where I called for 5 years at the top level. OTOH, I'd stack Newcastle District League up against the hottest baseball the whole State of Tasmania has ever seen in its 200 year history! What's more, there are significant differences between teams in any State League, which is a multi-tiered competition. Some of the adult ball played under the guise of State League, even in Sydney or Melbourne, is well below what I guess single A ball would be. I have simply suggested that the BEST standard of ball at the highest level of State League that I've seen and regularly called would be the equivalent of AA or even AAA Minors.

Peter, the whole problem with your "statistics" is that they are frequently offered in support of a false premise: in this case that you simply can't play at a professional standard unless your country can support a professional league. To put the lie to that assumption consider Australia's performance at swimming, or tennis, in the world arena. As a country with only around 19 million people we regularly put it to the USA and others with 10 times our population, and we don't have swimming or tennis scholarships to College or anywhere else! The closest we come to your scholarship system is the Australian Institute of Sport, and so few of our champions come through that system that most of us consider it irrelevant to the chances of success for a high quality athlete.

The other false premise, that you and your faceless compatriots have been trapped in, is to assume that what I write on discussion boards is a fair indication of the standard of baseball that I have called. I've told you before that I frequently explore ideas and interpretations for the sake of discussion that simply don't get a guernsey when I walk onto the diamond. I don't suppose that you're quite the a$$hole in real life that YOUR writing often portrays either! *grin* Certainly you espouse many ideas in print that I don't believe even you would put into practice on a D1 diamond.

I have an article coming out at Officiating.com entitled Baseball in Australia. I have submitted a photograph with that article of a Newcastle District League Grand Final crew. The umpire to my right - your left - was our Australian representative at the World AAA Youth Championships in Canada. Blaine will verify that fact for you. The umpire to my left - your right - has called International baseball between Australia and Japan, and represented in an IBF tournament in Guam (I think). Check who has the plate gear on. I can tell you that the guy on my left is also my District League Umpire Development Officer, and he set the crew assignments for that game with no intervention from me or anyone else, so I guess I can't be that bad of an umpire to be in that level of company.

I have talked to several major league scouts since our dustup of a couple of years ago. They assure me that the major leagues travel the globe looking for good talent and if there were any AA players in Australia or anywhere else, they have been offered positions in the American minor leagues. The economic incentives are just too great not to play in America. The toughest challenge facing foreign baseball players in America is the language barrier and that would not apply to Canadians or Australians so your players would jump at the chance.

There you go jumping to false conclusions again! Unless you can think like an Australian, and believe me on past performances YOU obviously can't, then there is no way you can reasonably conclude that our players would "jump at the chance". Some surely do, but many more opt for a different, more cautious route - such as going through the US College system. That way they can get a free education even if they don't succeed in reaching the highest ranks of their chosen sport. And the economic incentives are NOT at all what you might suspect, either. We have a pretty high standard of living down here, despite the dollar exchange rate. That aside the fact is that 16 Australians have made it into the US Majors since Joe Quinn in 1894, and most of those in the last 20 years. If the sport stays an Olympic medal event then I'd venture to say there will be many, many more in years to come.

Chris Snelling, the guy from my region playing for the Mariners, is right when he says there are more players of his standard or better at home. I've seen him come through from Under 18's and he was NOT the best player on that team! That honour fell to a guy named Adam Morissey who is now being scouted over there. Only a couple of Chris' friends are also in the professional system because your scouts are usually only interested in our PITCHERS. There are just so many good American kids who can hit, catch and throw that the scouts really don't need to chase overseas talent unless it is truly exceptional. So, they usually don't bother. That leaves a whole lot of talent that doesn't get an opportunity to shine in the home of the game. Snelling probably just got lucky! He went to the farm system because his best friend Craig Anderson - a left handed pitcher - was scouted for the Mariners. Our kids who can pitch would probably outnumber our positional players 5:1 in your professional system. That's just not a true reflection of the available talent overall.

It is simply not relevant to quote the number of players that you have called for and then seen go to the minor or major leagues. I have called dozens of players that have obtained contracts by the minor leagues but I have never called a AA game. One player that I umpired has even completed his major league career and retired. (Pete Shoureck, sp) I even threw his old man out of a couple of games. So what.

I will grant you one thing however. Australia, unlike Canada) has a reverse season from the US so a few players might travel there over the winter months. However, most US players travel to Latin America for the winter months if they want to keep playing. Many players, however, find that their bodies need a rest and their wallets need replenishing with real work.

You're right! And if that's what I was doing - saying that I called AA ball because players I once called went on to later play AA ball - I would agree that my estimates were seriously flawed. But that is NOT how I have drawn my conclusions about the standard I've called. Instead, I've drawn those conclusions based on the level of ball the participants were currently playing when I actually called them. You almost hit on it when you said that our seasons are reversed. They were reversed when I first made those estimates and they still are now.

Those players who are in your US professional, independent and College ranks all come HOME for OUR summer season. Many of them will play in our State League during your off season. Their performances have given me a pretty good feel for the comparative standards. When ABL was alive and well, we also had an influx of US players at A, AA and occasionally AAA standard. That league was aligned to the US farm system and accredited as AAA-equivalent. There were probably between 50 and 80 US professional players in Australia each year at that time. Several of those are now playing in the Majors back there, too. That also gave me a good feel for the comparative standard in State League.

That aside, be careful of making yet another false assumption: that any improvement in the standard of play here would depend on how many US players came here during your off season. One may have absolutely NOTHING to do with the other. Our standard of ball has improved markedly since the ABL and Olympics, but with each ABL team limited to only 5 overseas (read US) players on its 30-man game roster at any one time, I hardly think THEY were the cause of our improvement! We have a long history in the game, and we are a nation that reveres sporting prowess of any kind. ABL and the Olympics put the spotlight on baseball in my country and THAT brought out the best in our players IMO.

Warren, unlike the original discussion of a couple of years ago, I am NOT attacking your integrity. I believe however, that you have been misled by the promoters in Australia. In my letter to Blaine, I encouraged him to come to the US and see real minor league baseball before making any judgement about what kind of baseball he was seeing. I also told him that with the right recommendations he could call ball in the Cape Cod League (a D1 summer league in New England that is only a few hundred miles from where he lives. I know the assignor of the league and have been offered the opportunity to work there so I might be able to put in a good word.) I might encourage you to do the same thing but I recognize that it may not be practical from your standpoint.

Finally, I have read the whole thread regarding balks and I beleive that there is a cultural disconnect between Australia and America. Your observations may not apply here. There is a different level of expectation and informality in America that may not exist in Australia. This is NOT meant to put your country down. It is just to say that we are different.

Peter
[Edited by His High Holiness on Jul 1st, 2003 at 10:48 AM]

Thank goodness for that! I pride myself on my honesty, so any attacks on my integrity I find especially inflamatory, as you well know from personal experience.

You are right, and Garth is unfortunately quite wrong - I'm sure honestly so - in that I have NOT been to America, nor have I seen the standard of your professional ball at first hand. I had planned to do so but my financial circumstances have changed and that will not be possible unless things once again change for the better. It is also possible that your scouts and the promoters of our ABL were misleading in their assessments, but if that were the case why have so many young Australians done so well over there since the ABL started in 1989 and first attracted serious US interest?

I know that players like Ryan Rowland-Smith, Craig Anderson, Chris Snelling, John Stephens and even Graeme Lloyd would probably NOT be playing over there if it wasn't for the influx of scouting interest generated by the ABL. We were just too far away and South America in particular was just such a fertile ground for talent that your MLB and its scouts hardly took us seriously before then. ABL refined our talent base down into a single 8-team league and made it so much easier for the scouts to cover the depth of available talent in the allotted time.

On the subject of balks, it ha
s been suggested before that our approach to such things is way more rigid than in the run-of-the-mill US leagues. That could well be quite true. We are fortunate in having a single rule book, a single system of mechanics and a single national governing body. Our focus is toward the International baseball arena - IBF sanctioned events such as the Olympics, World AAA Youth Championships, Intercontinental Cup, etc. With that sort of focus for umpire development, our officials are guided that way and don't have any of the moderating influences of NCAA, Fed and other such systems which evidently tolerate a much more laissez faire attitude to administering the rules. I've heard that NCAA is particularly lax toward the enforcement of the balk rules. Is that truly the case?

OTOH, I think you would find that in practice we call the game a whole lot closer to the way you do than is evident from reading these discussion boards. The boards are a crucible where we all tend to boil discussions down to minutia and refine or accentuate our differences, rather than taking a broader view of the overall picture and our strong similarities. There is certainly no point in discussing the things we all agree over ad infinitum - that would be pretty darn boring, as you well know in your alter ego guise as the chief pot stirrer extraordinaire. *grin*

Thank you for at least ASKING the questions on this occasion, Peter, rather than simply suggesting I was a fraud as you did the last time. I'm happy to try and justify any assertions I may have made - like I said, I pride myself on my honesty. OTOH I don't enjoy defending myself in a hostile arena, as was that other board when this issue last arose. Keep it up and we may even find several more points of agreement in time! *grin*

Cheers

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by His High Holiness
...[snip]...

"I know the Aussie on the Mariners claims that there are several more back home as good as many ML players."

If this is true, then Aussies must have a special brand of altruism not found anywhere else in the human race. Here is this Utopian country where ballplayers routinely pass up million dollar contracts all for the love of the game and country. Furthermore, jingoistic American owners routinely pass them by in favor of inferior American talent.

I can't buy any of that. If there was untapped talent in Australia of even AA quality, American owners would be dangling hundreds of thousands of dollars in signing bonuses in front of their faces. And just like players from Mexico, Venuzuela, the Dominican Republic, etc, the Aussie boys would sign on the dotted line and fly to America.

Unless of course, their brains are wired differently from the rest of the human race. If that is the case, then Australia is so different from America that Warren's musings on umpiring are irrelevant to the American game.

Peter

...the conclusion-jumping Gold Medal is going to Washington DC, and your dresser drawer, no doubt about it! *HUGE grin*

First of all, many of our players are overlooked by your scouts because they are NOT PITCHERS. Why offer a big contract to an Australian kid to travel halfway around the world and play in a position that you can get an American, Mexican of Venezualan kid to play almost as well - maybe even at half the price? And if our positional players just aren't getting those big sign-up offers, how will the owners ever know what they're capable of achieving through contact with the pressure-cooker US farm system?

Our brains don't have to be "wired differently" for us to have a different focus in life. It is way easier to attract someone from the backblocks of a city in the Dominican Republic with the promise of sporting riches than it is to attract an Australian kid from the beaches of Sydney who really can live and enjoy life, even without the siren call of Major League baseball.

It isn't altruism, Peter. It's pragmatism. The US farm system demands the very best and most productive years of any young man's life. If it doesn't almost guarantee more in return than can be achieved by staying at home and choosing a business career instead, why would anyone give up the gorgeous women, the pristine beaches, the brilliant climate, the world's best beer and a whole host of other attractions to travel halfway around the world and live life like a povety-striken nomad for 6 months of every year over 5 or more years in the Minors?

You are still thinking like an American kid who grew up with baseball as the national pastime and baseball players as his national heros and idols. You are still thinking like someone for whom money and prestige remain the major motivators, as you've mentioned several times before. You need to think like an Australian kid who just loves the game for itself rather than for its potential power and prestige, and who has much more to give up in order to achieve success than any poor kid from Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic.

Cheers