Pitched Ball hits dirt then batter: Hit by Pitch?

[Rick Win]

Simple (?) question from a Youth League (9-10) manager -- If a pitched ball first hits the dirt before striking the batter, is (1) the batter "Hit by Pitch" and awarded first base or (2) the pitch a "Ball" and "live" in-play (assuming the batter didn't swing) or (3) something else? We had this happen to us in consecutive games with different calls by the umpire.

[refman]

Dead ball....award batter first base.

[ozzy6900]

RickWin wrote:

Simple (?) question from a Youth League (9-10) manager -- If a pitched ball first hits the dirt before striking the batter, is (1) the batter "Hit by Pitch" and awarded first base or (2) the pitch a "Ball" and "live" in-play (assuming the batter didn't swing) or (3) something else? We had this happen to us in consecutive games with different calls by the umpire.

RickWin and others. Try to remember it this way: If you are playing men's Slo-Pitch softball, the ball is dead. If you are playing baseball or fast pitch softball, the ball is alive. It's that simple!

[Rich Ives]

Print this and have your UIC review it with his staff. Do NOT do it yourself and don't even think of doing it during a game.

Official Baseball Rules

Rule 2.00

"A BALL is a pitch which does not enter the strike zone in flight and is not struck at by the batter.
If the pitch touches the ground and bounces through the strike zone it is a "ball." If such a pitch touches the batter, he shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the purposes of Rule 6.05 (c) and 6.09 (b). If the batter hits such a pitch, the ensuing action shall be the same as if he hit the ball in flight."

"IN FLIGHT describes a batted, thrown, or pitched ball which has not yet touched the ground or some object other than a fielder."

[gobama84]

Originally posted by ozzy6900
RickWin wrote:

RickWin and others. Try to remember it this way: If you are playing men's Slo-Pitch softball, the ball is dead. If you are playing baseball or fast pitch softball, the ball is alive. It's that simple!

Sorry but this is WRONG!!! Baseball or fastpitch softball, ball is dead when it hits batter (either bouncing or In Flight).

[DownTownTonyBrown]

I think both are correct... but arguing different points.

In Slow pitch softball the ball is dead when it hits the ground. Besides that... no one gets a base for being hit by the pitch in Slowpitch Softball.

The ball remains live after hitting the ground in both fastpitch games (softball and baseball) and the hit batter is awarded first base in both games.

When the batter is not hit by the pitch:
If the batter does not swing the pitch will be called a BALL - for not entering the strike zone in flight. If the batter does swing, the result is dependent upon the contact with the bat (a hit or a strike). The pitch that goes into the dirt cannot be considered a catch - e.g. 2 strikes on the batter, pitch is in the dirt, batter swings and misses, this is a dropped third strike. Even if the catcher fields the ball cleanly after the bounce in the dirt, it cannot be considered a catch because the ball hit the dirt before it was caught.

Poor pitching should result in penalty to the pitcher not just a bruise on the batter.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Hi-ya Tee!

You're testing me...

I would call this a foul tip and batter is out. This is probably skirting it's way through a couple different rules and the situation is likely only covered in somebody's published interpretations. I don't find anything in the FED rule or casebook. It seems that once the ball hits the bat, things start over... could be a home run, could be a foul ball, could be a caught fly and an out, could be a foul tip and with an 0-2 count it is the 3rd strike and batter is out.

I would guess that you already know the answer, Tim.

Educate us. Tell us what Jim Evans says about the situation.

By the way, Tim...
I'm working High School FP Softball District Championship today and baseball Championship tomorrow - my first games of the season with temperatures above 50 degrees! It might reach 65 today and possibly 70 tomorrow. Spring may have finally have reached Idaho!

[TwoBits]

If a ball in the dirt could bean the batter without penalty, then I think we would see alot more balls thrown at the ankles than at the head at the major league level.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by gobama84

Sorry but this is WRONG!!! Baseball or fastpitch softball, ball is dead when it hits batter (either bouncing or In Flight).

Tim C, Try to follow here, the ball that bounces in fast pitch softball and baseball is alive. I never mentioned anything about a hit batsman. I was referring to the status of the "bounced pitch". Of course if the batter were struck by the bouncing pitch, the ball is "dead".

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by Tim C
Please check your name reference, you have referred to me on this situation and I did not post it.

Please correct the reference.

Tee

Tim C, I am usually very careful about coming back on these boards. If you look up at my origional answer, the very next post was:

Sorry but this is WRONG!!! Baseball or fastpitch softball, ball is dead when it hits batter (either bouncing or In Flight).

Tha post had Tim C attached to it. This morning, that post is gone......

I can live with that!

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by Tim C
Here is the battle that is currently (well kinda 'currently') raging:

Jim Evans agrees with you. Jim says that it is silly to think that it could not be caught for a foul tip strike out. His logic is based on the simple fact that the same pitch can be hit for a home run and how could ANYONE think it is not a caught foul tip.

ON THE TOHER HAND Rick Roder has posted that it CANNOT be caught as the ball is "not in flight". I love it when two rules experts disagree.

BTW, congrats on your games -- I am fortunate to have a big school league game this week that the loser is out of the playoff picture. Alas, hope you do well . . .

Tee

Tee and Tony,

That is a good point raised! Do either of you have an idea on the correct ruling on that situation?

I gotta say, after 3 years, I have never seen it happen! But now that I say that, it will happen tomorrow!

I would think because the ball came directly off the bat, it would be a foul tip caught third strike and an out!

What are your opinions?

[gobama84]

Originally posted by ozzy6900
QUOTE]Originally posted by gobama84
QUOTE]Originally posted by ozzy6900
RickWin wrote:

RickWin and others. Try to remember it this way: If you are playing men's Slo-Pitch softball, the ball is dead. If you are playing baseball or fast pitch softball, the ball is alive. It's that simple!

Sorry but this is WRONG!!! Baseball or fastpitch softball, ball is dead when it hits batter (either bouncing or In Flight). [/QUOTE]

Tim C, Try to follow here, the ball that bounces in fast pitch softball and baseball is alive. I never mentioned anything about a hit batsman. I was referring to the status of the "bounced pitch". Of course if the batter were struck by the bouncing pitch, the ball is "dead". [/QUOTE]

Mario #45,
Your quote was to Rick Win and he "WAS" talking about a hit batsman.

[Jerry]

Tim,
Isn't Roder now the official interpreter for PBUC? Granted; Evans and Rick may disagree, but shouldn't PBUC rulings be used for professional ball? And by extension, for those leagues playing under OBR?

In actuality, as long as we amateurs are familiar with the rulings, (whomever's authority it may be; Evans or Roder or Childress or Tim C.'s), we can easily persuade a coach that our "call" was the proper one. For me, I'd call a Foul Tip that first bounced before being hit, an "Out." Seems to be more logical.

Jerry

[GarthB]

Jerry:

It's my understanding that Rick Roder is the "official" interpreter for the WUA website, not PBUC. The World Umpires Association is a labor union and the website answers fans' questions. PBUC is an organization that develops umpires for Major League baseball.

Since hearing of Evans ruling, I believe Rick backed off somewhat on his.



[Edited by GarthB on May 16th, 2003 at 11:58 AM]

[Jerry]

Garth,
Thanks for the input. You might be right about Roder and the WUA. My guess is that if that situation ever came up in MLB, whatever the PU ruled would end up being the precedent (specifically, a ball bouncing before being struck by the batter and subsequently caught by F2).

My point in the discussion was, if that occurred in amateur baseball . . . we umpires need to be aware of what we would rule . . . and why. Both Evans and Roder have given thought to it; it's what we choose to side with at the time it occurs.

I'm ready. It's a foul tip.

Jerry