detached equipment

[ggk]

Bases loaded, one out. The batter lays down a "suicide squeeze" bunt that rolls into foul territory near the first base foul line. Due to the spinning action on the ball, the ball is rolling back towards the foul line and has a chance of becoming a fair ball. The pitcher and catcher are running towards the ball and the pitcher yells, "touch it foul" at which time the catcher scoops up the ball with the mask he is holding in his throwing hand.

i believe that the ruling in fed and ncaa ruling for detached equipment applies to a ball in fair territory as well as one that is foul but has a chance to become fair. does the mask in the catcher's hand actually meet the definition of detached equipment? while it is detached from its normal location it is not completed detached from his body. it is not as if he has thrown his mask at the ball.

what is your ruling for fed and ncaa?? 3 base award??

[UmpJM]

ggk,

The mask in the catcher's hand is NOT "properly attached", hence it is deemed "detached equipment". If, in the umpire's judgement, the batted ball had a chance of becoming fair absent the contact with the detached equipment, make the award.

JM

[ggk]

i agree. but i seem to remember someone making an argument otherwise. thanks

[SAump]

Fielder's cap? If it were whiskers away from foul, I would expect the fielder to pick it up barehanded and attempt to make a play. I would allow the play to continue live and pick up the players reactions before I make that 3-B award decision. I doubt I would award all 3 if B/Rs reached bases safely or attempt extra bases at their own risk {Similar to balk ruling}.

Catcher's helmet? I would rule that the ball had no chance of going fair, foul ball because the catcher was all over it. But if it were whiskers away from foul, I would also expect the catcher to pick it up barehanded and attempt to make a play. Need more info. I would also have to see B/Rs reactions to make that decision. If either gives up, most likely the batter-runner, I would not make the 3 base award, I would have a foul ball.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

Need more info.

All the info needed is in the OP, and the question has been correctly answered.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by ggk

it is not as if he has thrown his mask at the ball.

In fact, it's exactly as if he has thrown his mask at the ball (and hit it).

[SAump]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

All the info needed is in the OP, and the question has been correctly answered.

1) Masks are now illegal FED equipment. I would have to ask myself if the catcher were deliberately testing my knowledge. I would toss the mask before the first pitch of the game.

2) Catchers that shave know how to reach a ball with their bare hand or mitt. Catchers with HSM also know how easy it is to make this play with either left-handed mitt or free hand in place of their new right-hand extension. Imagine how difficult it is to scoop up a spinning ground ball in your HSH and to throw or make a play with their new extension.

3) What spinning action? The action that occurs behind home plate. I would have to ask myself why a catcher deliberately committed a 3B award penalty. Did the catcher hit the ball with the mask or the ball hit into the catcher's mask?

[mbyron]

I seem to recall "detached equipment" being called on a live ball that did NOT have a chance of going fair: it was a pitch not swung at.

The Dodgers were playing somebody or other, R2, outs don't matter, and F2 blocked a pitch in the dirt, while pulling his mask off. As the ball started to roll away from him on the 1B side, he used his mask to corral it.

I believe it was Eddie Rap. (doesn't really matter) at 3B who called detached equipment and awarded R2 third. The FOX announcers took a while to figure that one out.

Point is: the provision about "possibly becoming fair" would apply to a batted ball only, and detached equipment is possible in other situations.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I believe it was Eddie Rap. (doesn't really matter) at 3B who called detached equipment and awarded R2 third. The FOX announcers took a while to figure that one out.

Point is: the provision about "possibly becoming fair" would apply to a batted ball only, and detached equipment is possible in other situations.

I can believe the FOX announcers took a while to figure it out (if they did at all), but I bet they butchered it without hesitation! BTW: FED only it's a 2-base award.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

1) Masks are now illegal FED equipment. I would have to ask myself if the catcher were deliberately testing my knowledge. I would toss the mask before the first pitch of the game.

2) Catchers that shave know how to reach a ball with their bare hand or mitt. Catchers with HSM also know how easy it is to make this play with either left-handed mitt or free hand in place of their new right-hand extension. Imagine how difficult it is to scoop up a spinning ground ball in your HSH and to throw or make a play with their new extension.

3) What spinning action? The action that occurs behind home plate. I would have to ask myself why a catcher deliberately committed a 3B award penalty. Did the catcher hit the ball with the mask or the ball hit into the catcher's mask?

1) Not true. A certified mask and helmet combo is still legal. They're just rare. And, clearly the ruling doesn't depend on whether this is a mask or an HSH.

2) Yes, they know how to reach the ball with their bare had. They also "forget" the rule and might panic.

3) A valid question, but also one that's covered in the OP. The use of the word "scoops" indicates a positive action by F2.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SAump

1) Masks are now illegal FED equipment.

Since when?

I would have to ask myself if the catcher were deliberately testing my knowledge.

It appears you'd fail that test.

I would toss the mask before the first pitch of the game.

Followed, of course, by the head coach, assistant coach, catcher, catcher's dad...

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) Not true. A certified mask and helmet combo is still legal. They're just rare.

About a third of varsity catchers still use the combo hereabouts.

[justanotherblue]

It's not the mask that is illegal, it's the skull cap. Fed wants ear protection also. There are mask/helmet combos that are legal equipment.

[mikebran]

The title is me talking to me.

I don't know if I actually saw an ANSWER to the question.. a good one.

I know that:
Sitch 1. Runners on. and a swinging bunt dribber rolls out in front of plate (in fair territory) and catcher (for whatever reason, maybe he is from Mars) uses his MASK in his hand to scoop ball back toward him.

I know this will be a 3 base award for using detached equip on a batted ball, but the ball remains live.. (never understood this part). I quess when playing action stops, all baserunners will be scored and the B-R will be put on 3rd.

My guess at this time is same for other codes.

But is the answer the same on the ball in foul territory but has a "chance" to go fair?

[LittleLeagueBob]

Originally Posted by mikebran

But is the answer the same on the ball in foul territory but has a "chance" to go fair?

I believe Ump JM already answered this - here's the pertinent FED rule (my emphasis):

Rule 8: Baserunning, Section 3: Baserunning Awards, Article 3

Art. 3... Each runner is awarded:

b. three bases if a batted ball (other than in item a) is touched by an illegal glove or mitt, or by detached player equipment which is thrown, tossed, kicked or held by a fielder, provided the ball when touched is on or over fair ground, or is a fair ball while on or over foul ground, or is over foul ground in a situation such that it might become a fair ball;