The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 03:55pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 112
Can someone point me to the rule that clarifies this?

I have been told two ways
1. Hand always part the bat
2. Only during a swing
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 03:58pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally posted by Gmoore
Can someone point me to the rule that clarifies this?

I have been told two ways
1. Hand always part the bat
2. Only during a swing
You were told wrong twice.

The hand is never part of the bat.

Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 04:07pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 112
Thumbs up

Thanks Bob
Any casebook plays or other rule thats states this?
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 05:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Little Elm, TX (NW Dallas)
Posts: 4,047
There's nothing in the book about that. Maybe you should ask us what your actual question is - perhaps those "rules of thumb" you were taught have merit in certain situations. For example - Player A swings at a pitch and the pitch hits his hand. Dead ball strike (leading the layman to say "hand is part of the bat" when he sees this treated just like a foul ball. However - add R1 stealing 2nd to the same play, and make the ball go straight from hand to mitt, and you do not have similar treatments (if "the hand is part of the bat" in this case, it's a foul tip and the runner can advance at his risk - but that's not the ruling. Dead ball strike - runner back to 1B).

So what is the situation in which this came up or is a question?
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 05:20pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 4,222
I'm sorry. There is no one specific rule that informs us that the hand is attached to the arm, not that bat. For those who cannot understand the logic of that statement, some pulling together of information from a couple of rules is necessary.

Let's start with Rule 2.00 Strike:

A strike is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire which (e) touches the batter when he swings at it. (and) (f) Touches the batter in flight in the strike zone.

(Note there is no mention of a bat in either of these statements)

Now, let's take a look at 6.08...The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out....when (b)He is touched by a pitched ball which he is not attempting to hit unless the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, or the batter makes no attempt to avoid being touched by the ball.

See anything about the unnatural fusion of a bat and hand here?

For extra measure, let's add in 5.09 The ball becomes dead...when (a) Apitched ball touches a batter or his clothing while in legal batting position.

Again, no mention of a bat being attached to the hands, or any other part of the body.

So, where are we? We now know that if the batter is swinging at a pitch and is hit in the hands, it is a deadball strike and not the foul ball or the batted ball it might be if the ball struck the bat. We also know that if the pitch hits the batter in the hands when he is not swinging at the pitch and the contact did not occur in the strike zone, it is a deadball and batter is entitled to first base.

Good enough?

__________________
GB
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 05:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 112
i had no play in mind i was reading thru the softball test and there is a question about hand part of the bat.
then i remeber this past year seeing this play where the batter took a pitch on the hand the home plate umpire sent him to first out came the coach stating hand was part the bat.
The home plate conferred with the field ump and the call ended up being "foul" ball later talking with the umps i got my answer in their mind one said always part of the hand the other said only during a swing

Thanks for the replies it is amazing how many "myths"
that i have see that where really wrong calls but a umpire is to "stubborn" to admit that he was wrong.

I know i will miss calls but if i learn from those calls
rest assured i wont miss it the second time.And for a young umpire who goes to games to observe a older umpire you think that they are making the correct calls, some are-some are not- Just a student of the game wanting to learn

[Edited by Gmoore on Feb 10th, 2004 at 11:22 PM]
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 08:43pm
DG DG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,022
Bottom line:

Hit in hand while swinging = dead ball and a strike, no base. Hit in hand while not swinging = dead ball, go to first base...
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 06:27am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CT
Posts: 2,439
Gmoore,

Here's what I say to coaches when they bring this up.

"Coach, let's use some common sense here. Do you see bats growing out of your players hands? When you bought your last bat, did it come with a choice of hands? If the answer to both questions is no then your concept is wrong."
__________________
When in doubt, bang 'em out!
Ozzy
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 04:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Dover, DE
Posts: 103
Send a message via Yahoo to Delaware Blue
Quote:
Originally posted by DG
Bottom line:
Hit in hand while not swinging = dead ball, go to first base...
Unless the hand is over the plate and in the strike zone when hit. Then it's still a dead ball, strike.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 05:20pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 3,100
Full count, bases loaded, 2 out, tie score, bottom of last inning. Batter starts to swing at an inside pitch but then tries to check. Sounds as if it hits metal so you call foul. The batter then clutches the index finger of his top hand in obvious pain.

Is it foul, so we have another pitch?

Did he swing and it hit him, so the game goes extra innings?

Did he not swing and it hit him, so his team wins?

That happened to me once. The ball obviously made contact with his finger, but I stuck with the foul call, claiming that the ball hit the bat before it hit his finger.

The kid got a hit on the next pitch, and his team won.

Tougher call if the ball is grounded into the infield as the batter stands in the box grasping his injured hand.

I'm not really sure what to call when the batter swings and the ball hits both hand and bat and is put into play. There are those cases. You definitely hear ball against metal, but the kid also has a clear injury. When it's a fair ball on a swing, I've let it go.
__________________
greymule
More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men!
Roll Tide!
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 10:30pm
DG DG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,022
Judgement! Did the ball hit bat first or hand first? If hand it's a dead ball. If bat, it is fair or foul depending on where the ball goes. If can not determine which came first, but I hear metal, then I assume it hit the bat first.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 12, 2004, 08:32am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 517
Quote:
Originally posted by DG
Judgement! Did the ball hit bat first or hand first? If hand it's a dead ball. If bat, it is fair or foul depending on where the ball goes. If can not determine which came first, but I hear metal, then I assume it hit the bat first.
If it hit the bat, and then the batter's hand, we have a foul ball, to wit; a batted ball that hit the batter's person in the batter's box, regardless of if the ball ends up in foul or fair territory.

The only question is if it is a foul ball as above, or a dead ball strike. Unless it is strike 3, it doesn't matter which.

Roger Greene
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 13, 2004, 01:01am
DG DG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,022
Thanks for correction. Batter reaction will help make the call on the close ones. If you hear metal wait to see what batter does. If he is shaking his hand in pain, you can call the foul ball. If not...
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2004, 06:10am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 842
Send a message via AIM to cowbyfan1 Send a message via Yahoo to cowbyfan1
That is why I have learned to call time if the ball goes foul.. This will give you a chance to see the reaction if you are not sure if bat or hand. If the player drops the bat and starts holding/shaking out his hands then award 1b (if batter did not swing). If he does not, then call it foul.
__________________
Jim

Need an out, get an out. Need a run, balk it in.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2004, 02:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 4,222
DG writes:
If he is shaking his hand in pain, you can call the foul ball.

Huh?
__________________
GB
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:13am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1