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Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 03:55pm
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Can someone point me to the rule that clarifies this?

I have been told two ways
1. Hand always part the bat
2. Only during a swing
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 03:58pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gmoore
Can someone point me to the rule that clarifies this?

I have been told two ways
1. Hand always part the bat
2. Only during a swing
You were told wrong twice.

The hand is never part of the bat.

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Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 04:07pm
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Thumbs up

Thanks Bob
Any casebook plays or other rule thats states this?
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 05:10pm
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There's nothing in the book about that. Maybe you should ask us what your actual question is - perhaps those "rules of thumb" you were taught have merit in certain situations. For example - Player A swings at a pitch and the pitch hits his hand. Dead ball strike (leading the layman to say "hand is part of the bat" when he sees this treated just like a foul ball. However - add R1 stealing 2nd to the same play, and make the ball go straight from hand to mitt, and you do not have similar treatments (if "the hand is part of the bat" in this case, it's a foul tip and the runner can advance at his risk - but that's not the ruling. Dead ball strike - runner back to 1B).

So what is the situation in which this came up or is a question?
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 05:20pm
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I'm sorry. There is no one specific rule that informs us that the hand is attached to the arm, not that bat. For those who cannot understand the logic of that statement, some pulling together of information from a couple of rules is necessary.

Let's start with Rule 2.00 Strike:

A strike is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire which (e) touches the batter when he swings at it. (and) (f) Touches the batter in flight in the strike zone.

(Note there is no mention of a bat in either of these statements)

Now, let's take a look at 6.08...The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out....when (b)He is touched by a pitched ball which he is not attempting to hit unless the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, or the batter makes no attempt to avoid being touched by the ball.

See anything about the unnatural fusion of a bat and hand here?

For extra measure, let's add in 5.09 The ball becomes dead...when (a) Apitched ball touches a batter or his clothing while in legal batting position.

Again, no mention of a bat being attached to the hands, or any other part of the body.

So, where are we? We now know that if the batter is swinging at a pitch and is hit in the hands, it is a deadball strike and not the foul ball or the batted ball it might be if the ball struck the bat. We also know that if the pitch hits the batter in the hands when he is not swinging at the pitch and the contact did not occur in the strike zone, it is a deadball and batter is entitled to first base.

Good enough?

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Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 05:32pm
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i had no play in mind i was reading thru the softball test and there is a question about hand part of the bat.
then i remeber this past year seeing this play where the batter took a pitch on the hand the home plate umpire sent him to first out came the coach stating hand was part the bat.
The home plate conferred with the field ump and the call ended up being "foul" ball later talking with the umps i got my answer in their mind one said always part of the hand the other said only during a swing

Thanks for the replies it is amazing how many "myths"
that i have see that where really wrong calls but a umpire is to "stubborn" to admit that he was wrong.

I know i will miss calls but if i learn from those calls
rest assured i wont miss it the second time.And for a young umpire who goes to games to observe a older umpire you think that they are making the correct calls, some are-some are not- Just a student of the game wanting to learn

[Edited by Gmoore on Feb 10th, 2004 at 11:22 PM]
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2004, 08:43pm
DG DG is offline
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Bottom line:

Hit in hand while swinging = dead ball and a strike, no base. Hit in hand while not swinging = dead ball, go to first base...
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Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 06:27am
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Gmoore,

Here's what I say to coaches when they bring this up.

"Coach, let's use some common sense here. Do you see bats growing out of your players hands? When you bought your last bat, did it come with a choice of hands? If the answer to both questions is no then your concept is wrong."
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Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 04:32pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by DG
Bottom line:
Hit in hand while not swinging = dead ball, go to first base...
Unless the hand is over the plate and in the strike zone when hit. Then it's still a dead ball, strike.
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Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 05:20pm
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Full count, bases loaded, 2 out, tie score, bottom of last inning. Batter starts to swing at an inside pitch but then tries to check. Sounds as if it hits metal so you call foul. The batter then clutches the index finger of his top hand in obvious pain.

Is it foul, so we have another pitch?

Did he swing and it hit him, so the game goes extra innings?

Did he not swing and it hit him, so his team wins?

That happened to me once. The ball obviously made contact with his finger, but I stuck with the foul call, claiming that the ball hit the bat before it hit his finger.

The kid got a hit on the next pitch, and his team won.

Tougher call if the ball is grounded into the infield as the batter stands in the box grasping his injured hand.

I'm not really sure what to call when the batter swings and the ball hits both hand and bat and is put into play. There are those cases. You definitely hear ball against metal, but the kid also has a clear injury. When it's a fair ball on a swing, I've let it go.
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Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 10:30pm
DG DG is offline
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Judgement! Did the ball hit bat first or hand first? If hand it's a dead ball. If bat, it is fair or foul depending on where the ball goes. If can not determine which came first, but I hear metal, then I assume it hit the bat first.
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Old Thu Feb 12, 2004, 08:32am
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Quote:
Originally posted by DG
Judgement! Did the ball hit bat first or hand first? If hand it's a dead ball. If bat, it is fair or foul depending on where the ball goes. If can not determine which came first, but I hear metal, then I assume it hit the bat first.
If it hit the bat, and then the batter's hand, we have a foul ball, to wit; a batted ball that hit the batter's person in the batter's box, regardless of if the ball ends up in foul or fair territory.

The only question is if it is a foul ball as above, or a dead ball strike. Unless it is strike 3, it doesn't matter which.

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Old Fri Feb 13, 2004, 01:01am
DG DG is offline
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Thanks for correction. Batter reaction will help make the call on the close ones. If you hear metal wait to see what batter does. If he is shaking his hand in pain, you can call the foul ball. If not...
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Old Wed Feb 18, 2004, 06:10am
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That is why I have learned to call time if the ball goes foul.. This will give you a chance to see the reaction if you are not sure if bat or hand. If the player drops the bat and starts holding/shaking out his hands then award 1b (if batter did not swing). If he does not, then call it foul.
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Old Wed Feb 18, 2004, 02:38pm
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DG writes:
If he is shaking his hand in pain, you can call the foul ball.

Huh?
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